Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Babylon 5, S.M. Stirling's Emberverse, Ranger's Apprentice, something else? Let's talk.

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Peter Remling
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Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Peter Remling » Sun May 24, 2009 9:05 pm

Lindsey's thread Modern vs ranger poised the question of which you prefered in a SHTF scenario.

These scenarios are always fun so let's alter the scenario a little. For some unexplained reasons, you are part of a post apocolyptic scenario: a tenth of the world's pop remains (you and your family havn't surcumbed to any of the virus's), firearms and explosives don't work, no electricity available (except what you can generate) and internal combustion engines don't work. Part of the problem is high altitude detonation of nuclear devises caused EMPs, the rest is unknown. What you do know is that you need to flee your home and that a high altitude area 200 miles away is said to be safe. What do you do/take and how ?
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Peter Remling » Sun May 24, 2009 9:19 pm

My first thing would be to build a cart from wood and bike wheels. Each member of my party would carry a backpack with some food, water, firestarting equip, blanket and the gear a ranger would typically carry. Bladed weapons, bows and spears would be carried, armor and helms worn. I have 1 sleeved butted hauberk, a butted vest and a vest of aluminum mail. The aluminum would resist some slashes. On the cart would go additional food ,water,medicine, bangages, cookware, family tent, clothing, blankets, tools weapons, etc and our three cats in travel pens. The dog would walk with the cart. Depending on time and availibility the cart could be pulled by those walking or attached to additional bikes and pulled.

Where possible I'd salvage other "trade goods" :seeds, pesticides, weapons medicines, liquor and anything else that became available.
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby mcapanelli » Mon May 25, 2009 12:34 am

First order would be to hit the local Camping supply store. I take first aid kits, water purification tabs, rope, sleeping bags and as many wool blankets we could carry. Add to that some mre's and bottle water and we're done there. While the wife and any male friends/family that may have survived did that I'd be off to the local stables to see if any horses had survived. Provided we had a few we'd mount up and ride off using the compass I'd be sure to snag at the gen store. Backpacks loaded and horses packed up we'd head out. As for weapons I'd personally carry my sword and bow, but for everyone else axes and and spears would be the order of the day. There'd be no time to train anyone in swordsmanship and your better off with an axe or spear if your untrained anyway. I'd be sure to have a large camp knife and my hand axe on me as well. The grouping would depend on if we were in any immediate danger from things other then the elements and radiation. I'd probably have the more experienced woodsman and a buddy scout ahead and two other good armed man trailing with the main body of women and children in the middle. Just like Pete I'd grab the hay wagon at the local farm, provided it wasn't already procured, and pick up more supplies as we came across them on the way.
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Gareth » Mon May 25, 2009 5:27 pm

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Last edited by Gareth on Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby hesinraca » Tue May 26, 2009 3:43 am

I daydream this stuff all the time!

Starting here in eugene oregon under current circumstances, Katie and I would be packing our good traveling/camping clothes and garb. all the linens, wools, cottons, and some of the lighter stuff that is more waterproof. Collect our bows/arrows, her sword (mine is katana, not ideal for my style for practicality, going to sell it possibly, sadly), and my nearly a dozen knives, including the army issue gorka kukri and a few good camping knives/daggers. Wax wood long-staff from Kung fu, her leather armour, camping gear, basic utensils (non plastic for durability). Put all of this "ideal gear" in a pile in the bedroom, packed into backpacks and piles ready to go. Then we'd get our basic traveling stuff on, light travel, heavy pants, coats, her sword, and our bows and 2-3 knives and head to the barn with an empty backpack each, leaving the house locked up as best we can.

Now the barn is quite a ways away, unfortunately, so we'd have some heavy-population areas to go through, downtown, residential , west 11th st. The chaotic good (yes, d&d, it's just such a good descriptor system) tendencies say get the horses, get the gear, get the friends that are mobile and get out. In this situation though, the chaotic neutral inner-psyche will surface. It's happened in the past in other situations. We would be stopping at some key points along the way. 7-11 store or two to collect water bottles and canned food that will have high energy for traveling on low consumption. Also, there is a fred meyer, safeway, target, and walmart further down. We'd go to these locations and collect a backpack worth each, taking the gear to more remote locations off of 11th st behind bushes where people wont find them, and leave the loot, marking the locations down. Once we got to the barn we'd be taking what we really needed, and locking everything else in the trailer under the assumption that we'll have a few days or a week to get back to it later. Bring more of the mounted combat weapons we have (spears, and a few short javalins). Hoarde some grain and equine first aid in the trailer from the office and lock that all up, taking as many empty saddle bags with us as we could. Depending on who was actually at the barn, we might even consider taking some of the other horses.

From this point We'd be making preparations to leave town. Moving would be slow with a lot of gear so we'd either collect it and gain a group to move it, possibly locate some wagons of sorts or trailers, or suit up for light and fast and relocate first, somewhere out a ways from big towns, and then collect resources. We'd determine our resource cache location and relocate our loot drops to there, moving by horseback with bows out and ready (shit, Katie shoots faster then I do, so assuming no significant surprises we'd have a good offensive capacity). At this point we'd develop some sort of fortification tactic and collect supplies, making runs into town to get gear and bring it back to the drop. There is Jerry's hardware, a Homedepot, and a radio-shack in town, as well as a medical supply store. I'd be collecting any implements we might be able to use, basic gardening tools for later use, machetes and weapons, scalpels and medical wraps/supplies. Depending on the capacity to take secondary resource caches we'd probably horde some stuff elsewhere. I'd also be stopping by the herbalist, because I trust and know her and we could use the herbs for energy and health, as well as her celtic-rvival group could prove a good ally and we'd consider leaving town with them.

If we were leaving for a long distance target we'd aim for Breightenbush, Or Bend, or possibly try to get north before bridges to washington are overrun. I'd have to trust my father would handle my family. If possible we'd move some of the forge gear to a usable spot and make some more implements for whatever.

The big thing would be tactical resource acquisition via stealth, horse-speed, and timing. After reading Sterling's book I did some research and he has it pretty well nailed. We'd want to set up a temporary location out of town to build allies and resources and still be able to make raids, and then relocate further out. I have never been terribly attached to human-comradare on a mass scale, I find I need a specific inclination such as emotion, common interest, commonality in person, etc. If you were around I'd look for you people, but as is the survival of any given town be it Eugene or bend or portland wouldn't be my concern, long term survival strategy would be tops.
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby caedmon » Tue May 26, 2009 7:54 am

Ok, I'll bite Mr Stirling. Some considerations. I live in Alaska, but anyone in Canada or the Midwest is going to have the same issue: everything depends on the season. Assuming best case; early May, there are roads to where I want to go, steam power does work, I have three days to prep.

My Resources:
  • I am building a wooden wheeled cart.
  • I own swords, bows, spears, and armour
  • I own a treadle singer sewing machine
  • I own a 1923 Remington typewriter.
  • I live in one of only two farming areas of Alaska, dairy mostly. There are more than 200 head of cows in a 1 mile radius.
  • There are about 30 horse in a 1 mile radius.
  • There is a fairly thriving local blacksmithing scene here, including a couple neo-tribal blacksmiths.
  • There is a local saddle maker who spent a couple years among the Amish.
  • About a mile away there is a guy with a dozen hand powered drill presses.
  • There is a working steam traction engine about six miles from my house (downside- it goes six miles an hour).
  • There are two university experimental farms within 10 miles of here.
  • There are several horse wagons in within 15 miles of me, but I don't know their exact location.

Pros:

  • I live for this stuff. In addition to Ranger stuff, I am a medieval reenactor and a practical Steam Punk.
  • I recognize that things aren't gonna get better in the near future before everyone else.
  • My wife is as whacked out as I am on self sufficiency.
  • If safety is North everything in front of me has a smaller population.

Cons:
  • If safety is South, the largest population center in Alaska is in my way.
  • If I'm heading North there is a city 40 miles to the South, and there will be 15,000 people eating their way here in 2 weeks.
  • The farming population of this area is graying.
  • I am not an accomplished fighter.

The Plan:
Going North or South, my initial plan is the same, save as many skilled people as possible. Get a herd of livestock and go.
If I go south most of the herd will be bartered for stuff/safety when I hit the only major local population center. But I have some friends there that might be useful to have along.
If I go North yipee, clear sailing (I hope).

Day 1: Gather People/Resources
  • Get as many like minded primitive skills survivors, local farmers, experienced horse riders, people with technical skills, reenactors, and associated families together as I can.
  • Send groups out to collect as much food, seed from experimental farms, and items listed above in resources.

    Must haves:
    • Get my stuff ready, get wagon wheels off my cart discard rest.
    • take all of the 200 head of livestock in a 1 mile radius.
    • Get a nearby blacksmith's tools if he has succumbed.
    • Get the Steam Traction engine. It could be the only working self powered apparatus north of Vancouver.
    • Get drill presses mentioned above.
    • Get all available horse/ox carts, bike trailers.
    • Assume 40% sucess on other items.

Day 2/Early Day 3: Outfit/retrofit / Pack
  • Outfit wagons and carts for oxen.
  • Retrofit bike carts for dogs.
  • Pack as much onto existing wagons.
  • Set up duties/marching order
  • separate cowboys from fighters from scouts
  • prioritize weapons to:
    • horsemen
    • bikes (mounted infantry)
    • everyone else

Day 3: Rest / Recheck everything


Day 4: Head out
South: Head down the road cattle in front and non-cowboy fighters/scouts distrubuted forward.
North: Head down the road cattle in front and non-cowboy fighters/scouts behnd.
-Jack Horner

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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Willrett » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:50 am

I would be at a slight disadvantage to start because I haven't got all my gear. But first off I would head to 3 places dunhams, surplus city, and walmart. Depending on my party size I would get from dunhams bikes and carts, camping gear and all the arrows, knives and fishing gear we could carry. Next at surplus city I would grab all the machetes, axes, and other tools/weapons. They also have a craft section and we would stock up on all kinds of fabrics for whatever. at walmart would be any food items we could not find at the other places.

I think that covered everything (for now)
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby R.D.Metcalf » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:52 pm

The scary thing about these threads is that they are conceivable and in todays political climate, at some point, probably likely.

I've never been too hot with a bow. I have used them for hunting with success, however a gifted archer I am definitely not....Soooooo...I would have two swords one at my side the other on my saddle, my saddlebags packed light, my axe and seax, and last but not least
my great grandfathers hunting horn for signalling.

My goal would not be to run but to basically range and defend the folk and herds from potentially violent theives...and more mundanely to keep wood cut, help tend the feilds, and do some smithing and tanning as it needs to be done.

What worries me about such a scenario, is how will we care for our elderly, children, expecting women etc. in the absence of modern medicine? Its definitely a heart breaking thought at how many would die in the first winter. Life expectancy in child birth would drop dramatically, death by famine would become likelier and those who need modern drugs to survive would perish as well....Not a pleasant thought.
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.

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Peter Remling
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Peter Remling » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:15 pm

Willrett wrote:I would be at a slight disadvantage to start because I haven't got all my gear. But first off I would head to 3 places dunhams, surplus city, and walmart. Depending on my party size I would get from dunhams bikes and carts, camping gear and all the arrows, knives and fishing gear we could carry. Next at surplus city I would grab all the machetes, axes, and other tools/weapons. They also have a craft section and we would stock up on all kinds of fabrics for whatever. at walmart would be any food items we could not find at the other places.

I think that covered everything (for now)



Rereading this thread and Willrett, you are not really at a disadvantage. Not having a kit, will make you think from the getgo. I started this thread and I just realizied something I'd forgot. I live in a suburban environment and yet there are several farms and orchards around. Within a mile is a fruit tree orchard (with a year round store with fruits and preserves) and a farm for high quality investment steers. Investmant for some but dinner and longterm herding for others. Within 5 miles is several stables a few more orchards and home farms (berry picking etc) and a farm museum complete with livestock and non electric or gas powered farm equipment. If I had to leave, most of my stuff would either be left behind or be divided up amongst an increasingly large group.
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Eledhwen » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:38 pm

I'm set. Disaster preparedness covers a wide range of things, not just the most likely or expected. I simply gather my family, grab our bugout kits and related bits, cross the Anduin at a nearby ford if the bridges are held, head West until I reach the Appalachian Trail and then North, not necessarily on the Trail but up in those hills and mountains.

There's a reason I spend so much time walking and hiking, and getting my family involved.

For me, it would mostly consist of E&E tactics until I get to one of several rally/rendevous points and set up where I can see it, watch it for a bit. There are caches, lots of small ones rather than a few big ones as well as 'wild' plots of oats and similar things interspersed around places of natural, mostly unknown, and hard to get edibles. I have been working on it for a very long time. Stealth and hiding work best; I am not as young as I was and getting in too close is unwise if it can be avoided...intelligence, both mental and knowledge sorts, inform the actions.

Ready at a moment's notice. Does that make me a Minutewoman? LOL

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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Jon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:08 pm

I would need a great amount of nerve and determination to do this. I am only nearly fifteen.
I have a set of modern camping equipment that is ready to go. To be more specific this is what I would take from it (assuming it is late spring, the best time of year in Tunisia):
-Basha (i can set up a camp with this in 10 mins)
-Hammock (no need for sleeping bag)
-Solid fuel Stove
-Fire equipment
-Food and water, no more than 5 days worth
-Knives
-Spare clothes
-Rope, cord, etc...
-Compass, map, survival and first aid stuff
-As few personal things as possible


I know this is not much at all, but my strategy would be speed. I know I'm fit enough to do 20 miles in a day, however I may not be able to keep up that pace for 200 miles. For food and water refills, I would count upon finding villages (following the coast you can be sure of it) and whenever possible, live off the land.

I will not follow the main road, and stay away from it because I know that versus a gang that would attack travelers I would not stand a chance. Even if it was just one man and I could pick him off with my bow, I cannot count on actually being able to kill. Although I practice, I haven't had any weapons training. So best to avoid nasty encounters.
I would take my bow, and my axe, which are probably the only weapons I own at this time that I know can kill. My swords are blunt and I do not know how to use them. I'm somewhat lacking in other weapons. I would not take armour for the reason of wanting to move as fast as possible, despite medieval armour working well against gangs' primitive melee weapons.

I would keep this up as long as possible, following the coast. If by some amazing feat of will and nerve I managed to reach the safe haven I could try and send back help to my family who would be bunkered up (darn I only just thought of the other people coming :P), if they had traveled with me I would have approached this differently :/

This is just one suggestion, and my poor plan probably wouldn't work.

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Strength before Weakness.
Journey before Destination.
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Peter Remling
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Peter Remling » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:38 pm

Actually Dirhael, it's a pretty good plan. First those who make intricate plans generally get stuck in the plan and can't improvise. Thinking outside the box is where you want to be. Plans fail, being able to think on your feet without a plan set in concrete will allow you to go on.

I was very impressed with the fact that you are aware of your shortcomings (battle skills) and would seek to avoid conflict where possible. Most people your age and well older would romanticize about how they would battle overwhelming odds. Your understanding and acceptance of shortcoming shows maturity well beyond your years and I salute you.
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Re: Taking Lindsey's Thread a little farther

Postby Willrett » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:50 am

I have been getting more and more prepared lately which has kinda cut into my ranger time and budget. after the new year I plan on putting some food up. I think what we do here goes hand and hand with what we already do here which is why I was so happy to find this place.
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