Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

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R.D.Metcalf
Amrod Rhandir
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Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

Post by R.D.Metcalf »

Gareth,

If I were going to ask Professor Tolkien a question it would be why should LOTR be a mythology for England instead of a great addition to a very rich although sadly at times fragmented tradition?

At the time these poems were sung, nations had not yet emerged and folk lived in a tribal society. Beowulf in todays terms would've been a Swede, but he would've feircely referred to himself as a Geat. The pre migration folk of southern Jutland could be called Danes but they would've refused the label preferring to be called Angles.

As our ancestors moved they took their tribal affiliations/Indentities with them, as the Angles Kingdoms sprawled across most of Great Britains land mass, Anglelond, got its name. But along with Angles, came Saxons, Frisians, and Jutes, incidentally Jutes could also be considered Danes by todays standard. Later predominantly Danish and Norwegian Vikings raided and settled as well.
Svein Forkbeard conquered most of England and his son Cnut dealt the death blow to the Saxons at the battle of Ashingdon in 1016 and was crowned King. Incidentally in the revolts against William in the 1070's Anglo-Danish earls in the North enlisted Danish aid.

My own ancestors were Danish in origin the three earliest are named Arnkell, Dolfin, and Thorfinn, decidely Scandinavian names despite the last two being englishmen by birth,they were born in Dentdale, "Granpappy" Arnkell was the only true Dane we could trace. Yet despite the change of location the names, presumably culture and language remained almost purely Scandinavian for two generations

My point in all this is that taken together England already had a massive amount of heroic literature, that was richly diverse, from a tribal perspective.

I am looking forward to your thoughts and to a thought provoking discussion 8)
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.

My Sword Is my Troth.

~Iron Wolf Forge~
Gareth
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
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Re: Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

Post by Gareth »

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Last edited by Gareth on Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
R.D.Metcalf
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: The wild Hielands of Western N.C.

Re: Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

Post by R.D.Metcalf »

Gareth,

I want to clear something up as well, I didnt post this thread to be argumentative but rather to bring to the fore, with your help, the more historical aspects of Tolkiens works by posing the question: Why purely "English"? without hijacking your "why are you here" thread. I was posting in spirit of friendship and I welcome your opinion its as valid as my own, and I value your input.

Considering the story line the works characters were just as tribal/provincial as the patchwork of Germanic and Celtic kingdoms of early England herself...I find that ironic.

Incidentally, on the Saxons with horses note, I dont think Tolkien was far off the mark. The Lakenheath horseman burial among others and testimony from the battle of Stamford, where there is a report English horseman did encircle and slaughter many of Hardradas men lends some credence to at least occasional mounted combat.
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.

My Sword Is my Troth.

~Iron Wolf Forge~
Gareth
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:37 am

Re: Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

Post by Gareth »

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Last edited by Gareth on Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
R.D.Metcalf
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: The wild Hielands of Western N.C.

Re: Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

Post by R.D.Metcalf »

Gareth wrote:
The Iliad and Odyssey may be separate works, but they exist within the same mythological culture and background. One that recognizes the same deities and traditions. I think that is what Tolkien was seeking. To give a more ordered and complete mytos for England.

With the exception of the celtic peoples of pre-migration britain the cultural backgrounds of an Angle, Saxon or even a later period Dane or Norwegian were very similar, Religiously identical and not too far apart in language, for instance: King: Old Norse Konungr, Old English Cyning, Earl: Old Norse Jarl Old English Eorl.

Englisc/ english is a term thats been around for a very long time...But my theory is that Mr. Tolkien, being the classic scholar he was, was not so much interested in a mythology for England as we would understand it....But rather a catalogue of things that made England from the Victorian period onward special, leaving behind a rather violent and heathen past, as he related in the passages of Denethors suicide. As much as I love Tolkiens works I cant help but accuse him of ...perhaps a bit of modern nationalistic arrogance. Perhaps I'm over interpeting a great work of fiction...perhaps I'm off the mark...But if we were all right there would be no point in discussion :lol:

A good read is 'The Real Middle Earth' it outlines just how much professor Tolkien borrowed from Englands Norse and Anglo-Saxon heritage...But perhaps more importantly it brings the student of Northern cultures a sharp realization of just how much was left out.
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.

My Sword Is my Troth.

~Iron Wolf Forge~
Gareth
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:37 am

Re: Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

Post by Gareth »

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Last edited by Gareth on Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
R.D.Metcalf
Amrod Rhandir
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: The wild Hielands of Western N.C.

Re: Anglo-Saxon/ Norse poetry and Tolkien.

Post by R.D.Metcalf »

"Have a great one."

You too, bro 8)
The frontier moves with the sun and pushes the Red Man of these wilderness forests in front of it... until one day there will be nowhere left. Then our race will be no more, or be not us.

My Sword Is my Troth.

~Iron Wolf Forge~
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