Armors

[Eledhwen]

I have been thinking a lot about armor of late. Maile is the armor most people associate with knights, dwarves, adventurers and whatnot. I have been making maile of various kinds for more than 30 years, from the early days of 12 gauge bailing wire (in which I ran five miles each day O-o) through to 16 gauge riveted maile more recently. It is flexible, it looks good...and it is heavy.

I am not as young as I was. For many years I wore aluminum scale armor rather than maile as it was lighter, simpler to make, easier on the eyes and hands. Each scale was 1/16" thick, 2" long, and 1" wide...in their day very small for the SCA where scales tended to be much larger, made of leather, and much rarer. I had an eighth of an inch of armor over my entire torso, minimum. It was not as heavy as maile..but it is still somewhat heavy and being a corselet, not subject to belting as the maile shirts I had were.

All this is leading up to something I have been leaning more towards of late. I hunt and I love my bows and my archery. Historically archers often wore gambesons, padded garments worn under armor by soldiery but also alone by those without heavier armors. Well and good, I have a very nice gambeson..but it is red so I have to make another one of black, green, or brown. No, it is not armor per se...padded at best of course and no protection against a sword, but it is light..and I could put a jerkin or jupon of studded leather over it if needs be....or just make the whole thing of linen lining, wool padding, and leather facing..with or without studs.

Lighter, more fitted, this may be the way for me to go. It is something I am seriously considering. I do not fight heavy list much these days, not since the accident rearranged my anatomy on the left side and gave me that unbelievable concussion. There are too many folk in the heavy list who feel it is proof of their prowess to hammer the hell out of someone beyond need...and a growing attitude of acceptance for that and toss aside those who aren't interested in showing off bruises or enduring much pain. As a result I have no real need for very heavy armor and can look at more realistic, less confining types.

The gambeson is warm in cold weather too, not to mention protecting against thorns and whatnot. Strider wore no armor through much of the Fellowship, unless the duster and jerkin could be thought of as such.

I think a gambeson, perhaps faced with leather, maybe studded, is the route to go. When I start on whichever form it takes I'll record it as I go along.

Just pondering...

Eledhwen

[Mirimaran]

I'm eager to see what you come up with! I am thinking of modifying my own leather coat thingie that I wear to faire slightly to have more protection, but I would hate to give up mobility. I've tried leather plates with mixed results, I do have a bit of armor that I set to the side a few years ago I should get back to. As always, pics, but I know you're busy!

[Eledhwen]

Maybe a little faster as I am thinking seriously of using this sort of 'armor' for hunting purposes. It is period accurate, during the archery season I need no orange so can be a nice brown color, leather or whatever, and during gun season I can throw a simple orange jupon over the top and wear an orange mantled hood. Hate having to wear the orange but hey, the law is the law and safety is safety.

Yeah, not terribly 'Tolkienesque', at least not in feel; no romance ya know. But effective and good for the Old Broad.

Eledhwen

[Frothgar]

personally if im imagining a light scenario (where i dont strap on my full armour) i wear a under shirt wool jerkin with my recently redone leather jerkin over top. lose the wool if its a trek and its summer.

very warm and give a little bit of protection from my torso.

id say make the gambeson but have the leather layer as a seperte garment. design them both at the same time so they go together, like a jacket liner. but this way youll have some versatility in what you wear. also i imagine it will be easier to clean.

also, if you want some protection for not much weight, look up jack chains. thin plates of steel that run along the sleeve of a long sleeved gambeson.

Good luck
Frothgar

PS. i know weight was the concern, but for anyone else more concerned with sound or visibility, ive heard o things called jazeraint hauberks, wich were maille shirts stitched inside two layers of fabric. just a thought.

[theowl]

I second the jackchains suggestion. It's a light and convenient way to integrate plate armor.

I like the idea of wearing a gambeson as armor. I've fought in full contact tournaments with a gambeson as my only body armor, supplemented with a gorget and vambraces. and while I ended up a bit more bruised than I would with a breastplate on, I can attest to it working.

[Eledhwen]

Familiar with jazeraint armor. Never have used it and I have only liked a few of the types I have seen, and that usually in a sleeveless jerkin type.

I'm looking at going essentially unarmored actually; just the padded gambeson and perhaps a jupon with studs to go over it. Light, comfortable..and using the right wool even wearable in Summer as wool breathes nicely. It isn't going to be four inches thick like historic examples. LOL Probably half sleeved as I like my vambraces too much to go without them. Like as not pewter buttons up the front; I have a bunch of them with the fleur on them. I could cover them with fabric or let them darken with use and wear.

I am very much a minimalist; everything is a tradeoff. I do not like the weight and encumbrance and having armor on means having to reconsider what else I am carrying. Tired of armor really. That's for you youngsters out there. Hehehehe

I could wear it, I'm just tired of it is all. No good reason to at this point..and I own so damned much armor and so many helmets I could put on my own history sweep. O-o Comes of being a smith, bladesmith, and armorsmith...and doing it for years.

Nice suggestions though guys, thanks!

I have a pourpoint if I choose to wear hose instead of pants...not likely. Gambeson and jupon ought to do the trick, that is what I am planning up at the moment.

Eledhwen; old warrior out to pasture.

[E.MacKermak]

I won't go into the historical evidence (or lack thereof) of studded leather. For a light, almost unarmored, effect I would go with brigandine, probably using 22g spring steel for the plates. Plenty of protection, leather front, and still light. This is also likely the image that produced the "studded leather" we know and love. Look into the battle of Wisby (Visby).

Remember that unless backed by something more solid, leather in a thickness to provide protection is not terribly flexible. The thinner leather would have to be hardened (baked/wax treated) in order to get protective value and you are still talking about 10oz or heavier (5/32").

Several of the folks I fight with in the SCA use 22g hardened spring steel and the result is very lightweight steel armor. I am planning to make a brig when I get a chance (meaning after deployment) as Erich has long been described wearing studded leather but the more I learn the more I see that it would not be viable to add studs to soft leather and hope for protection.

For the others looking at possible armors, lamellar is another option. Simple, lightweight, and easy to make and repair. You coule even make the plates yourself or buy them and lace them.

Just options for those looking at armor.

[Eledhwen]

Studded armor was more than likely brigandine or something like it (except in fantasy applications); I have made several of them of different configurations, from coat of plate through coats with plates a half inch by one inch. Studs in leather are, or I should say to my mind are, evidence for something behind the leather or fabric. I made one brig of heavy trigger cloth (yeah, not period) using hardened leather plates for lightness. That thing outlasted most other armors by a measure of years of hard use, dying only a couple of years ago at Pennsic when a friend was using it. I was most impressed with its longevity.

I like brigandine...true brigandine armor that is, not coats of plate. It is very pretty armor, and with a shell the fact it is armor can be 'diplomatically' hidden as was done in later period. Easy to put on and take off. But..it is still armor and still heavier than simple quilted armor. True brig is, however, fairly late period for me. If I had a sallet (the most beautiful of helms to my mind) with lobster tail, bevor, and punched visor I would see about another one.

My left clavicle sits perched on top of the socket for the humerus. They could not return it to its original position because the bone they would have bound it to ceased to exist. The man who does shoulder work for the Patriots looked at the MRI and said..'Yuck', right off. As a result, it is exposed and wearing anything stiff and heavy on it becomes exquisitely painful over time. Adding enough padding to stop that makes the arm rather less than maneuverable. The accident left me misshapen, unfortunately, but I live and I could still fight, really....save for the comments I made at the beginning. I actually did start to fight again...until I realized that certain folk were intentionally targeting that shoulder and that their intent was well known and raised no comment.

I have made armor from aluminum, mild steel, high carbon spring steel, wood, bamboo, leather, etc. Lamellar are scales, in their simplest form, that have been laced together with no backing. Overlap upward for cavalry, down for infantry. I made some for my lass and now my younger son is wearing it. *laughs*

Quilted armor works fine for me, ala an archer of say the 14th century, although I would wear pants, not hose, a tunic and not a shirt and no pourpoint. Just the gambeson, with a jupon ala the Black Prince over it perhaps.

Eledhwen

[Yavion]

I'm looking at going essentially unarmored actually; just the padded gambeson and perhaps a jupon with studs to go over it. Light, comfortable..and using the right wool even wearable in Summer as wool breathes nicely. It isn't going to be four inches thick like historic examples.

I've never seen any articles that state a 4" thickness in any padded arming garment. What is your source for this?

I do know that in the Viking era they used layered wool and linen tunics under maille. I've also seen a 30-layer lined jack. It was maybe 3/4" thick between the quilting. I myself made an eastern style gambeson out of hemp/cotton twill with a double layer of natural cotton batting inside. It was sturdy, breathed well, and was machine washable. It also moved well as it was properly tailored.

[Eledhwen]

Four fingers thickness described in connection with Crusaders who were walking pin cushions of arrows...and finding that thickness actually makes maile fairly decent at absorbing blunt trauma. I would have to go digging through storage to find the books with the articles and manuscripts in them. It was long ago that I was equipping people with proper Crusade era armor...12th century stuff in this case.

I still remember when maile was first introduced to the Society; most folk weren't aware there was padding underneath or that the maile wasn't form fitting in reality. It led to some interesting injuries when struck..and pulling the maile out of the skin it had been driven into. *snickers* Drove the adoption of serious padding rather nicely. LOL Much of it was 12 gauge wire then too. Heavy stuff.

If you use felt, it doesn't have to be thick..and thick wool filling will felt with use and become a lot more compact. I would prefer to use horsehair properly made; extant examples are still as protective as they once were, especially in helmet liners. I believe one of these helm liners was found at Churburg, if memory serves.

I will say this for quilted armor; if it is all you have, it will be thicker than if you have metal over it. Some of the stuff I saw overseas was most impressive in thickness. Pity more of that kind of thing did not survive.

Eledhwen

[Eledhwen]

A quilted arming coat wins. That is what I will make. I will shoot archery in it, daily practice. I will go for hikes and walks and go rangering in it. I will do this until it is a second skin, so to speak. I will probably make more than one of them. They will be green or brown with perhaps one of black...I am Blacke Talon after all and it works well with that kind of sort of medieval deal.

I will say up front folks; one of the things I like about Tolkien is the fantasy aspect of it. One of the things I mourn about the SCA is the loss of that element. I remember it well and fondly. While I like, admire, and even make historically correct items, my rangering has a firm fantasy element in it and it will remain that way. Tolkien based his works on things historic, obviously. But he also included fantasy...and that blend is what I like.

To each their own; if you as a person are all about nothing but real world historical accuracy, have a party. If you aren't, have your own party. I am certainly having one. It is all about having fun after all...whatever your brand of fun might be.

No armor works for me these days. Making new armor for my son really illustrated how long I have worn and made the stuff. Too long it feels like now. If I dig out all those manuscripts and papers and books on armor I have collected over more than thirty years, I may offer some of them for sale here. Goddess knows I do not really need them and they have been in storage for a few years now, for the most part.

Lightweight 'armor' here I come! LOL

Eledhwen

[Ringulf]

Eledhwen.

You have raised this topic at a very interesting point for me as I too am making some armor to double as heavy armor for qualifying, and combat archery in the SCA.

Since my persona there is a Norse ranger/archer type, that is part of the Varangian Guard, I also had open to me the scale that you were refering too.
Of course I also want to maintain a strong "Rangery" presence as we Target archery and throwing weapon martials here in Trimaris are called Rangers.

I was looking at a viking style leather gambeson by Inner Baily and loved the way it looked but realized that the expense of a piece like this was out of my price range. I also saw some beautiful leather scale that was sewn to a gambeson such as this.

I finally came to a conclusion.
I make alot of larp gear out of what I call larp leather. It is a sandwich of cloth foam and faux leather that I have worked hard on making the right combination of Strong, durable, light, waterproof and fairly inexpensive in comparison to leather.

I made the leather gambeson of this with the open armpits and generous front back and side slts to the waist. It is gromited and laces on the shoulders and from the bottom of the armpit to the waist slits on the sides. and the top half of the sleeves are gromited and laced to the shoulders.

I then took the same technology and used the sterolite plastic bins from walmart to fabricate scales that have a center crease to stiffen them further and cover them with the fuax leather.

The result is a light waterproof inexpensive and good looking piece of armor that can be augmented with blue camp matt foam padding affixed with velcro in areas if I feel it needs to be reinforced in combat, but so far it is taking full impact and dispersing the hit beautifully without it.

It goes from neck (was thinking of a mantle type gorget out of the same stuff) to knees and covers my arms to the elbow. I then use my splint greives that come up to my knees and my bracers that cover up to my elbow. all this goes on like I am putting on a jacket and belts with a wide belt needing no other fastening so I can get in and out of it in seconds.

So far this is working for me and my needs but with what you were saying I thought I would pass on the idea and see if you could capitalize on any of it.

I know it is not particularly traditional as far as materials go, but the design and look are pretty good when done properly.

Let me know if any of it sounds interesting I would be happy to share techniques and mistakes!

[Eledhwen]

Way to go Ringulf. Whatever works for you is fine. I do not play in the Society much these days; heavy list is probably unwise with the ongoing concussion effects and the displaced clavicle. Combat archery is a joke in these parts and I do not compete so archery at range is of little interest to me except when there's no actual shooting for points going on.

I do hunt in period correct gear though, and 14th century at that.

I used to LARP a long time ago, but haven't found it interesting in a very long while; if the groups here would allow Calimicil weapons I'd think again but they do not, except NERO and that place has its own problems.

I use linen, silk, wool, and very occasionally, depending on culture, cotton. The Black Princes' arming coat appears to have had a layer of cotton wadding between the silk velvet outer layer and the linen inner layer. Of course, he was Prince of Wales at the time so expense wasn't such a concern as it would be for a Ranger or Forester. For us, it's linen and wool.

I allow more leeway with Tolkien type rangering, as I have indicated.

One of my personas was/is Bera Gunnarsdottir, Norse lass from the area around York so black and red. Fighting wise I had a simple tunic, pants, proper shoes, winningas, a simple padded aketon, and lamellar armor, which has been found at Birka. My helm was a Norman Conical with a maile drape. I used axe and round shield with that outfit. Off the field it was tunic and apron dress. One cool thing: recent ontological research on remains in Britain have indicated that the Viking warriors were not just men..they included women. A reexamination of remains formerly thought to be male due to swords, shields, and pants was made...and several seem to have been women. Dangerous things, assumptions. So Viking gals, you can wear pants and tunics and all that good stuff too.

I never buy into these sweeping blanket roles people seem so ready to assign. There are always exceptions.

Anywho, glad to hear you are hard at work and using your head for options. Period stuff is not inexpensive these days. I am fortunate I stocked up on linen many years ago before most folk knew about the online place I used. Should have done the same for leather and wool, drat it.

Rangering and Medieval Hunting are pretty much my only reenactment activities just now. While I do go into the woods as a proper longhunter, I do not participate in group reenactments with it.

Obviously with hunting season right around the bend here, Medieval hunting is the focus. My sons are going so getting them kitted up in proper kit and clothing is taking some time.

Have at it!

Eledhwen

[R.D.Metcalf]

" Dangerous things, assumptions."

Damn right, and the "historical arms and armour Community" is full of them. Leather and textile armour is one of those areas where assumptions abound. It spills the banks of common sense to see effigies of knights wearing cuir boille and to then argue ferociously against the possibility of Nordic warriors wearing it at all. Lamellar or possibly scale could very well be what was referred to as "Spangen Byrnja" and its a lot easier to come up with passble leather or textile armours than a hauberk. The "war coats" worn on the vendel plates are to my mind evidence to the contrary of the veiw every warrior and all their kin rode to battle in a hauberk. there is also a reference to Frankish warriors wearing "studded deerskins" .....This could be a spangen byrnja as well, as those "studs" were likely rivets holding iron plates.

Deerskin tanned full is not a lightweight material, but in contradistinction it is a mid weight leather. I have a very large doeskin I tanned last year that would be be about 3.5 to 4 oz weight, substantial a'plenty to make a very good cote of plaite. Bark tanned skins AKA veg tanned would be so much the better and could even be used for cuir boille. So the material was there, the skills were there, pictorial and saga references are there.....Draw your own conclusions.

In fact I currently have a project under way to test the viability of the vendel armour as shown in the plates using leather and Rus patterns as a guide as they seem to mimic closely the cut of the coats shown. I'm having to make an arming jack with the same cut to make the armour look right when worn....We'll see what comes of it.

[Eledhwen]

I will be interested to hear how that works out. Look forward to a report.

I recall people arguing fiercely against the Norse wearing lamellar...and the consternation that followed when lamellar was found at Birka...and has been found since in other places.

While historic reenactment is a nifty thing, and the safe route with it is to use only what is absolutely known from the archaeological record, it also contains a lot of pitfalls to do that as well. People are not now and have never been monolithic thinkers...there are *always* outside the box types. Some groups allow a bit of logical deductive reasoning in the application of their impressions, some do not. There is also the danger that ones' thinking becomes closed by clinging to hard to one set of facts that can be proven over others that aren't but have some evidence.

Extremes are always with us...and are really tempting ends to go to in debates and arguments.

Anywho, I will be very interested in how your testing comes out. I have tanned hides myself and hide armor is no joke when done correctly and care for properly.

Eledhwen