Equipment of the other cultures

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Togon
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Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Togon »

I was going to call this 'weapons of the enemy' but it really applies to any race. In modern times, many military members "go native," so to speak when in a foreign land or at least take a liking to some equipment, food, or mannerisms, if that makes sense. Like many i know have developed a liking for the AK platform, which is usually used by our enemies. But it even extends to other things like the shemagh many veterans love. Or even actions. Where did knife hands come from, if you know what I'm talking about? I am wondering if some other rangers integrate some items that may not exactly be Westernese, Dwarven, or Elvish.

I know many Westernese will scoff at the idea of using any trait of enemies, but it is something seen quite a bit in real life.

I spent a lot of time in Rhun and now I've got a particular fondness for single-edged slicy yet stabby blades for example. And I was thinking about integrating my shemagh I got in Near Harad as well. I also travel with an Easterling.

(I spent a lot of time in Asia partially inspiring my choice of blade, I think my shemagh is useful in the heat and my wife is Japanese.)

And no, I'm not saying I'm gonna pack a katana or anything. :mrgreen:
‘If by your carelessness you wish to do our enemies work then you may as well carry one of his brands’
OParnoShoshoi
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by OParnoShoshoi »

That's a good point. If you see multiple of your comrades die from a specific style of orcish blade you're going to pick one up and see why it worked so well, and might even add one to your kit. If you speak a little orcish, you might use an orc word to describe orc enemies.
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by OParnoShoshoi »

Also, as I type this, my AK and shemaugh are both within reach lol.
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Erfaron »

Togon wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:18 am I was going to call this 'weapons of the enemy' but it really applies to any race. In modern times, many military members "go native," so to speak when in a foreign land or at least take a liking to some equipment, food, or mannerisms, if that makes sense. Like many i know have developed a liking for the AK platform, which is usually used by our enemies. But it even extends to other things like the shemagh many veterans love. Or even actions. Where did knife hands come from, if you know what I'm talking about? I am wondering if some other rangers integrate some items that may not exactly be Westernese, Dwarven, or Elvish.

I know many Westernese will scoff at the idea of using any trait of enemies, but it is something seen quite a bit in real life.

I spent a lot of time in Rhun and now I've got a particular fondness for single-edged slicy yet stabby blades for example. And I was thinking about integrating my shemagh I got in Near Harad as well. I also travel with an Easterling.

(I spent a lot of time in Asia partially inspiring my choice of blade, I think my shemagh is useful in the heat and my wife is Japanese.)

And no, I'm not saying I'm gonna pack a katana or anything. :mrgreen:
I have been thinking of this as well, and have been considering weapons of the haradrim I could incorporate into my kit, as I am stationed in the southern parts of ithilien and often scout and harass raiding parties who try and go through the swamps
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Eofor »

Hmmm from a historical point of view exchange of military gear and tactics really didn't happen often.

We know this from the archaeological record (people tended to be buried with very culturally specific weapon sets) and from the written records.
A few obvious examples are the Britons and Germanics against the Romans, the Persians against the Greeks, the French and the Longbow.
Add to this that in many cases there was a cultural identity that was being represented and defended, again examples include the Japanese during the Meiji period and the Zulus under Shaka.

Where we do see a weapon being adopted it was usually a domestic version of the enemy's design (think tanks in the first world war) and not a straight up captured version.

Unit identification would be a concern, a large scale melee is a chaotic and terrifying thing, the last thing you want is your head lopped off by a neighbour because he turned and saw you holding a haradrim sword.

Finally there is the perceived cultural superiority which is prevalent throughout much of the historical world, using the weapons of the inferior and barbarous enemy simply wasn't done.

That's not to say on a small scale that it didn't take place, soldiers take trophies and must often replace broken gear in the field but I don't think it would have been common OR encouraged especially in a special military unit like the rangers.

The one exception that I can think of which is mentioned in the books and common sense is arrows.
Last edited by Eofor on Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Togon
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Togon »

OParnoShoshoi wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:46 am Also, as I type this, my AK and shemaugh are both within reach lol.
Right? This is exactly what I was talking about. (Looks over at SKS... Oh California...)
Erfaron wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:38 pm

I have been thinking of this as well, and have been considering weapons of the haradrim I could incorporate into my kit, as I am stationed in the southern parts of ithilien and often scout and harass raiding parties who try and go through the swamps
Good luck, ranger! You could keep your swamps, I'll take the mountains or coast any day. Watch out for swamp dragons.

Efor, those are some good points. In a standard military formation we would have to use standard issue weapons and equipment for those stated purposes. But as rangers, what amounts to special ops or recon units, wouldn't we have more choice on equipment? I could tell you recon gets to carry a lot of special gear the common folk would never see. Heck, they got beards while everyone else was clean shaven. And I do know Matt Easton has mentioned British officers rehilting talwars for the superior cutting ability but they could still wear it it uniform. The story behind my incomming messer is that its an Eastern blade rehilted in more Western fittings. I do have a type XIV, which is like my badge of office sword, but the messer is what I'm carrying as a personal blade.

Tolkien didnt seem to go into detail on the equipment of grunts, but thats part of the fun of putting it together. I was a common Gondorian soldier, but now I'm a ranger so I have to think differently while still trying to integrate what I know.
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Eofor »

Hey I'm just saying it didn't happen often in history which is where I tend to go for my guidance.
Absolutely soldiers capture trophies and I can totally see the officer in the mess in Gondor displaying his foreign looking sword and telling the story of how he slew a great chieftain in single combat to get it. Or how he was forced to carry an enemy sword by a Captain after carelessly losing his as a youngster and the nickname and sword just stuck. My own ranging sword is not a Rohirrim one and I've had to justify that in my own portrayal as well.

I do think you underestimate the military organisation of Gondor though. We know that Pippin reports to collect his new gear as a guard and we know that the Ithilien rangers were all similarly clad and armed, I doubt there was as much individuality in Gondor as there would have been in the North.
Obviously if ranger A prefers a bigger sword than ranger B that would be no issue - in Rohan for example the kings armoury contains gear to fit all the travellers including Merry so some variety would be present but invariably it would be the same types of gear with different embellishments.

I think deviating too far from the (admittedly scarce) source material is a risky business but the hobby is one of interpretation and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Elleth »

One cultural note this brings to mind from the early American frontier - at one point late 18th/early 19th century I've read that some of the elders were complaining that the young men had started dressing like natives - waring leather leggings and breechclouts (and showing their naked haunches making the ladies blush most scandalously! )

But notably, this was a generation after the hostilities (in that region) were over and done. During the conflict itself while there was absolutely mention of "plunder" it seemed the done thing to keep to one's own fashion. And come to think of it, we also see the Victorians idolizing the highland Scots - but only long after they were safely beaten.

I don't know how generalizable those experiences are, but it may be in times of existential conflict there's more of an impulse to find the things of the foe distasteful, then to romanticize them long after the fact.
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Togon
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Togon »

Eofor wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:32 pm Hey I'm just saying it didn't happen often in history which is where I tend to go for my guidance.
Absolutely soldiers capture trophies and I can totally see the officer in the mess in Gondor displaying his foreign looking sword and telling the story of how he slew a great chieftain in single combat to get it. Or how he was forced to carry an enemy sword by a Captain after carelessly losing his as a youngster and the nickname and sword just stuck. My own ranging sword is not a Rohirrim one and I've had to justify that in my own portrayal as well.

I do think you underestimate the military organisation of Gondor though. We know that Pippin reports to collect his new gear as a guard and we know that the Ithilien rangers were all similarly clad and armed, I doubt there was as much individuality in Gondor as there would have been in the North.
Obviously if ranger A prefers a bigger sword than ranger B that would be no issue - in Rohan for example the kings armoury contains gear to fit all the travellers including Merry so some variety would be present but invariably it would be the same types of gear with different embellishments.

I think deviating too far from the (admittedly scarce) source material is a risky business but the hobby is one of interpretation and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Gotcha. Thats something I also didn't think about with the north being a bit more 'free' than the south where there is a large kingdom with rules and regulations. And I agree, too much of a deviation would defeat the purpose of this hobby. I was mostly thinking like an item or two that is foreign to not only help, but make one's character a little more interesting.
And yes, I do have pictures of my loadout I want to post, im just trying to figure out how to compress my images on my phone. I am trying to keep things as Gondorian as possible but just thinking of adding a few eastern things I enjoy. I think theres like a certain percentage of, say, foreign or anarchronistic stuff one could add while still portraying your character properly.

I do want to see what a Rohirrim would carry. Is there a thread with your equipment on it? I have a thing for gear so more kit pics always make me happy. :lol:

Just had a funny thought. I could imagine an old sergeant saying, "This is an orcish scimitar; the prefered weapon of our enemies. It makes a distinct sound when swung."
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The lesson

Post by Eofor »

It didn’t matter how many times he came to this place, its beauty still moved him. Around him a handful of other rangers busied themselves with organisation, general tasks to prepare for the return of the rest of the force but he was left alone with time to admire the falls of Henneth Annûn.

His gear was piled beside him on a table which had been set down for his use and on the board was a simple meal of old bread, cheese and nuts. Of rarer and more delightful fare was the cup of wine which he was taking his time to savour.

The sentries had allowed him to pass without question for he knew the passwords though one, a younger man had stared long at the sword belted by his waist as if to voice an opposition. It had not come but even now the ranger saw the young lad stealing glances in his direction and at his sword.

‘Ahhhh let the boy wonder’ he thought as he sipped his wine and returned to staring at the falls, he would learn soon enough what it was like on the frontier…. If he lived that long.

He had been the same age when he first made the journey south, a proud youth full of his own importance. He had carried that cocksuredness until his first patrol….
Nothing had gone wrong, it was a simple patrol to check on the comings and goings of the enemy and they had returned with the information and no engagement. A perfect, routine patrol.

Except he had lost his sword.

To this day he had no idea how it had happened, it could have been when they forded the river and his wet clothes covered for the loss of weight in his scabbard? He couldn’t even rule out that he hadn't left it near the waypoint where he had sharpened it so lovingly…

Whatever had happened the result was immediate and humiliating. No ranger of Ithilien had EVER lost a sword. Not only could he not have fought in the event of an attack if the sword was found by the enemy they would know they were watched and that men of the tower were close.

Back in camp he had stood before the rest of the patrol as his captain had taken a sword from a pile of captured weapons and handed it to him.

‘If by your carelessness you wish to do the work of our enemy then you may as well carry one of his brands’

He felt his cheeks flush hot despite the cool mist of the falls, even now the shame of it burned but he had learned the lesson well. As the eyes of his comrades bore into him he made a most silent, solemn vow, he would NEVER lose this sword, he would NEVER let it out of his sight until the day it fell from his cold dead hand.
Even when weeks later his captain had tried to give him a new sword, believing he had atoned for his mistake he had continued to bear his badge of shame and over the years it had become a badge of honour.

He looked over at the sword lovingly, a once ugly easterling thing made lovely by the smiths of Gondor, no longer a badge of shame, but one of honour and of a lifetimes service. Soon they would be on the road again, back south to the lands it was forged.

But that was tomorrow, for now there was wine, and the window of sunset and a rest from his labours.
Last edited by Eofor on Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Eofor »

Togon wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:20 am I do want to see what a Rohirrim would carry. Is there a thread with your equipment on it? I have a thing for gear so more kit pics always make me happy. :lol:
Okay well here's a few threads, I've quite a few pics in the random adventure post as well. Please bear in mind that while Eofor is of Rohan he hasn't been there in a long time and as such his gear is a bit less naturalised.

https://www.middleearthrangers.org/foru ... =39&t=4643

https://www.middleearthrangers.org/foru ... =25&t=4726

https://www.middleearthrangers.org/foru ... =19&t=4676

And if you wanted to know why Eofor is off doing what he's doing there's a thread for that as well

https://www.middleearthrangers.org/foru ... =19&t=4597
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: The lesson

Post by Togon »

Eofor wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:49 am
It didn’t matter how many times he came to this place, its beauty still moved him. Around him a handful of other rangers busied themselves with organisation, general tasks to prepare for the return of the rest of the force but he was left alone with time to admire the falls of Henneth Annûn.

His gear was piled beside him on a table which had been set down for his use and on the board was a simple meal of old bread, cheese and nuts. Of rarer and more delightful fare was the cup of wine which he was taking his time to savour.

The sentries had allowed him to pass without question for he knew the passwords though one, a younger man had stared long at the sword belted by his waist as if to voice an opposition. It had not come but even now the ranger saw the young lad stealing glances in his direction and at his sword.

‘Ahhhh let the boy wonder’ he thought as he sipped his wine and returned to staring at the falls, he would learn soon enough what it was like on the frontier…. If he lived that long.

He had been the same age when he first made the journey south, a proud youth full of his own importance. He had carried that cocksuredness until his first patrol….
Nothing had gone wrong, it was a simple patrol to check on the comings and goings of the enemy and they had returned with the information and no engagement. A perfect, routine patrol.

Except he had lost his sword.

To this day he had no idea how it had happened, it could have been when they forded the river and his wet clothes covered for the loss of weight in his scabbard? He couldn’t even rule out that he had left it near the waypoint where he had sharpened it so lovingly…

Whatever had happened the result was immediate and humiliating. No ranger of Ithilien had EVER lost a sword. Not only could he not have fought in the event of an attack if the sword was found by the enemy they would know they were watched and that men of the tower were close.

Back in camp he had stood before the rest of the patrol as his captain had taken a sword from a pile of captured weapons and handed it to him.

‘If by your carelessness you wish to do our enemies work then you may as well carry one of his brands’

He felt his cheeks flush hot despite the cool mist of the falls for even now the shame of it burned but he had learned the lesson well. As the eyes of his comrades bore into him he made a most silent, solemn vow, he would NEVER lose this sword, he would NEVER let it out of his sight until the day it fell from his cold dead hand.
Even when, weeks later his captain had tried to give him a new sword, believing he had atoned for his mistake he had continued to bear his badge of shame and over the years it had become a badge of honour.

He looked over at the sword lovingly, a once ugly easterling thing made lovely by the smiths of Gondor, no longer a badge of shame, but one of honour and of a lifetimes service. Soon they would be on the road again, back south to the lands it was forged.

But that was tomorrow, for now there was wine, and the window of sunset and a rest from his labours.
Did you write this? This is beautiful! I am honored, master horseman. I'll be sure to keep the Beacons of Gondor well maintained should we need Rohan for aid. I will drink an ale in your honor tonight.
‘If by your carelessness you wish to do our enemies work then you may as well carry one of his brands’
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Re: The lesson

Post by Eofor »

Togon wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:01 pm Did you write this? This is beautiful! I am honored, master horseman. I'll be sure to keep the Beacons of Gondor well maintained should we need Rohan for aid. I will drink an ale in your honor tonight.
I did, it was a quick idea and I am glad you enjoyed it.

There are no names in it, it could apply to any number or rangers.... or just one. I have noticed persona development works better when you have a few seeds to grow from, you could deduce a few character traits that the ranger in this story may be likely to have which could be used to build a bigger picture.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Equipment of the other cultures

Post by Cimrandir »

Really just jumping on the band-wagon at this point but I'm going to have to agree with Elleth and Eofor with their thoughts on captured enemy equipment. Gondor strikes me as far too "advanced" for lack of a better term military-wise to have much use for other cultures and their innovations. Also, being on the backfoot, so to speak, with playing defense versus offense, it seems likely to me that they would want to take a little more care in providing a cohesive structure for their armies. Ithilien Rangers are a little more Special Forces than their northern kin of course but it still strikes me as a little off. If you're going for a more historically informed kit, I wouldn't put much into having "captured" equipment but if you want to lean more into the fantasy, by all means.
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