North of the Angle

For discussion of Dunedain culture, what it might have looked like and how it worked.

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Charlotte
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North of the Angle

Post by Charlotte »

What do people think about the lands to the north and west of the angle?

It seems we know that the remnants of the Dunedain reside in the angle, and presumably range out from it a fair distance (if I recall correctly, Arathorn died in the ettenmoors), and there are the "poor wood-men and shepherds" of the trollshaws (I saw it hypothesised in a MERS newletter that these may have been dunedain, which I also think highly possible, though I also think it possible they were relatives of Bree-men, though perhaps they fled to the dunedain of the angle when they were pushed out of the trollshaws?). To the far northwest there are the Lossoth - and I wouldn't not be surprised if there were more bands of wood-men and hunters and shephers and the like in the north downs and so on, but what about in the large area between these?

Was it totally deserted and in the hands of the enemy? I assume there are no large settlements since they would be worth of mention in maps, but is this space also trod by the rangers, or perhaps roamed by small clans, or simply the shepherds/hunters/wood-men willing to take the risk? I assume into the fourth age it would have been settled if nothing else, but could it have experienced settlement in the years prior to the war of the ring a la the anduin?

This question is especially relevant to me I feel, as this area seems to best fit the land I live in and have access to - the very northern reaches on deciduous woodland bleeding into the boreal (but not tundra, which makes forochel and forodwaith inappropriate imo,) then further north where I do most of my outdoors stuff mostly boreal forest (be it mostly pine/spruce or mostly cedar - well, juniper in tolkein's world i assume), and that land especially in winter requires specialized equipment (sleds, snowshoes/skis, wind gear, and well, i doubt i'll get a hot tent tolkein-approved but you get the idea) not needed and thus not used in winters in the parts of middle earth we see in the books (and, if I go a short way, a winter much more suited to trekking and travel than the muddy and wet winters seen in both those parts of middle earth and in more temperate regions). Since I think it makes sense (both on a practical and thematic level) to as much as possible root the equipment I am using both in the land I inhabit and in the land that correlates with in tolkein's universe, it seems a shame this region is so little mentioned in the lore and it seems worth teasing out what details are there and what is possible or likely. What are y'all's thoughts?
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Asbjorn
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Asbjorn »

If you talking about north of Eriador you have Forodwaith "Nothern Waste" and is populated by the Lossoth, they are a semi-nomadic people with a capital named suri-kyla in the north west of Eriador.

If my understanding is right they are based on Sami people in Finland and Russia.
"Few now remember them... yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless." Tom Bombadil on Rangers
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Charlotte
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Charlotte »

Yeah, the lossoth are at least around the ice bay I know (and I know their ancestors used to inhabit forodwaith but I'm not sure if we know how much they still do or if they're clustered mostly around the sea

I'm talking about the region of eriador between the angle and forodwaith though, which best reflects the land around me (well, maybe where I live could just about be the very northern bits of the angle or ettenmoors - but I do most of my outdoors stuff further in the boreal)
Last edited by Charlotte on Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Charlotte
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Charlotte »

like very roughly this area
Image

or maybe more specifically
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Udwin »

Hi Sorrel, I appreciate your efforts to locate your persona in an area of Middle-earth that corresponds to your actual location! That's a great way to bring a better sense of reality into your reenacting : )
You may want to check out the book "Middle-earth As Seen By The Barbarians" as it focuses on the indigenous, non-Dunedain populations who were living in Middle-earth before the Numenoreans arrived. I am currently rereading it, so I will keep an eye out for any mentions of this area. From what I remember, the original Men of northern Eriador were First Age Easterlings, "of the people of Bor, it is said, came the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age and...after-days". It seems this refers not to the Snow-men but to the men of Rhudaur and Angmar.
The original 'Middle Men' of Eriador in the Second Age lived around Lake Evendim, the North Downs, and the Weather Hills, and were mostly of the Folk of Beor, some of Hador.
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
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Charlotte
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Charlotte »

I'll definitely have to check it out!

The dunedain are also ultimately descended from the people of Beor right?
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Charlotte
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Charlotte »

And yeah I think it definitely helps with bringing the reality to it, there's also the seriously practical considerations that while a lot of the stereotypical 'ranger kit' is historically developed for cool/temperate climates and while I can kind of get away with it if I'm camping locally, which is sort of in-between, and could probably be seen as the northern and westernmost parts of the angle - thank you, great lakes - even just a few hours north (where a lot of the more legally campable land is) can easily reach -40 or -50°C, with heavy windchills in the lakes and rivers, deep snow, etc. I assume if rangers ever travelled or lived within these areas they would have had equipment to do so, we simply don't see it because we don't see rangers there in winter - or really winter in most places - in the stories. Still, I imagine that sort of thing without a modern sleeping bag *or* wood stove will be quite the endeavour, and not in the cards for a while.

Another difference that strikes me is that in temperate regions of North America, Europe, and presumably middle-earth, places with wet cold, muddy, etc winters with only a little snow on the ground (probably slushy and chunky too) and weak ice often have little travel and activity in winter, with borderline hibernation in some regions. But in places with dry cold, deep snow, and good ice, it becomes the prime season for travel in ways that often were not possible due to water and swamp and so on, and you can skate on ice and use skis and pull heavier loads on toboggans or sleds... I remember seeing a thread here about Dalemen and sleds and the parallels with northern Sweden, and thought it very interesting! Though I don't think I will go that route myself
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Udwin »

Sorrel wrote:The dunedain are also ultimately descended from the people of Beor right?
In a roundabout way, yes, partially. Numenor was given to the three houses of Edain at the end of the First Age, but most of those who settled it were Hadorians, with the part of the island where the Faithful came from settled more by Beorians. (Only a few of the folk of Haleth--mostly Druedain--came to Numenor). All of these groups had left stragglers behind in Eriador on their way to Beleriand, who the Numenoreans met and mingled with when they returned to Middle-earth after 600 2A. The Beorian natives become 'Middle Men' (the main stock of Arnor) while the Haladin-descended became the Dunlendings & Druedain who resisted the Numenoreans.

We remarked on the difficulty of winter travel on our last MERS trek...previously I had thought Middle-earth's traditional 'travel hiatus' from ~Oct 20 through Feb 20 was due to the cold of winter travel, but in deciduous climates it could result from the difficulty of obtaining fluffy dry leaf-litter for bedding. Around here, damp leaves post-November just don't loft and insulate the same, and by late winter around February or March everything is just MUD. But if you're up at higher latitudes, frozen mud and wetlands aren't an issue if you have snowshoes or a toboggan! Having done only a little snowshoeing up around Lake Superior many years ago, I'm jealous!
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
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Charlotte
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Re: North of the Angle

Post by Charlotte »

Yeah that travel hiatus really doesn't surprise me - I vaguely remember (I think maybe from QI?) That there were peasants in the north of France (and probably other places, but that's what was mentioned) who virtually hibernated until the 19th century, like sleeping 18 hours a day and getting up just to eat and stoke the fire kind of deal

Probably makes even more sense if you're forbidden from things like hunting and trapping that can be done in winter though, which ofc isn't the case in middle earth

Around the great lakes (doesn't work as well further up and inland where the snows all powder) a traditional method of hunting in late winter was to wait until a thick crust formed on top of the snow that deer and moose would posthole through and have trouble walking - then you could, with snowshoes (probably even more easily with skis) move quickly over the top without sinking at all, and actually outrun and catch up to them on the move
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