Period mountaineering?

[Jon]

A pretty interesting topic, IMHO.

It's a sport that I really love, and am only now starting to take seriously. I'm pretty sure some of you will have experience in this area, so if you could share some stuff, that would be great.
But what I'm really talking about is a blend between our re-enactment as rangers and the modern-ish sport of mountaineering. That very statement just seems to scream DANGER, but don't get any ideas, I'm not going to do anything stupid. Just discuss.
.
.
.
For the moment.

I understand that any ranger with some good boots and adequate protection from the elements would manage a certain degree of mountaineering, but I'm interested to know if there is any period equivalent of things such as harnesses, nuts, belay devices, crampons, axes, skis, compact stoves, etc etc....
I'm guessing that back then - or rather - in Middle Earth, people did not really do this type of thing if unnecessary. Travelling through mountain passes would have required at most some exposed scrambling, far from things like the highly technical routes up the Eiger or Suila Grande to name a few. So there probably isn't a lot of period stuff to go on.

hmmm, I'm just getting lost in thought here. I need some help.

[Ringulf]

I don't always go Mountaineering...but when I do,



Enough said!

[Eledhwen]

A harness can be made from a length of rope. Simple rings can work for snap links in some situations. Crampons date back a fairly long way; tie them to your boots. In simplest form they are simply a toothed piece of metal bent into a 'u' shape or a leather strap with spikes.

Mountaineering covers a lot of ground; from climbing with rope, pitons, and whatnot, through free climbing, rapelling and camping at elevation. Most of what I learned at Marine Corps Mountain/Winter Warfare School (more than once) can be adapted without much trouble...although in primitive kit it would be even more dangerous than it already it is. Not something to take lightly.

You would need to educate yourself deeply, be in peak physical condition..and the only way to do that is to actually climb and run the mountains, be familiar with snowshoes of the non-modern sort (I have some nice Huron made ones), skis (they date back 6000 years), and then take it a bit at a time. Be aware that *anyone* can come down with altitude sickness at any time for unknown reasons when above 7000 feet. Some folk who've never had it in their lives will suddenly get popped with it one day out of the blue.

Above the treeline is tough stuff...the day can be hot and clear, the wind refreshing..and it can kill you through dehydration and hypothermia.

Be careful, be exceptionally well prepared, and you may find yourself having a hell of a good time with it.

Eledhwen

[Jon]

Thanks for the info.
Ringulf that is an awesome pic you got there (I could imagine that Dwarves would be at the forefront of the skill), and it made me think: what about rope?
Nowadays the rope has to be resistant to the elements, and able to take a fall well and reliably. If the 'regular' sort of period rope was used, I can imagine that a fall would be *very* painful - and dangerous.
What other alternatives would there be to that?


Ah goodness more and more questions popping into my head. I'll only pain you with a few. Assuming that by some strange event (far-fetched, like climbing to the home of the Great Eagles or finding some powerful relic) this type of mountaineering was undertaken:

-Would there have been any such thing as aid climbing (apart from uses of prussik knots and whatnot)? Or would it all have to be free-climbed and thus only attempted by experienced individuals?
-Would northern or mountain cultures in Middle Earth have knowledge of things such as safe glacier travel or judging avalanche-prone slopes?
-Although it is fairly simple to abseil without a harness and other gear, would belaying be known about and at all practised? How?

Finally, there must have had to be a system of trad climbing (I seriously doubt any 'routes' would be bolted -_- ). When progressing up a face or steep ridge, protection must be put in - nowadays some pretty complicated mechanical devices are employed - but how would they have managed this, if at all?



Questions, questions, questions. Forgive me.

[Ringulf]

Hee Hee, I love that picture too quite hansome for a dwarf no?

I have thought about the whole period mountaineering thing to tell you the truth as it came up in an adventure I was working with in my writings.

The whole though of Dwarven mountaineers took me off in another direction and yes I felt it would have been quite natural for inside or outside the mountain.

As far as equipment goes I think Eledhwen did a fine job and I would not be able to offer any thing more practical than what she has given us, except perhaps to re enforce the whole concept of Rope or as the nautically minded would say, line.

Modern lines are as big an advancement over period (depending on the period) as an assault rifle is over a blunderbuss.

A deep investigation into line making materials and methods, ropewalks and rigging would take much more time and space than we have here, and we would still be left with the same question.
Do I use period or modern equipment?

I say use anything that is modern and safe, (you are not going to make any less period stain on the bottom of the chasm by having modern lines but it will be less likely to happen) Make it look as good as you can and then Blame the rest on the Elves!

" That damn Elven three strand!"...."That horrible Elven Polypropelene!" or "Isnt the mylar sheathing on this Elven double braid wondrous stuff?...soft as Rhosgoble rabbit fur it tis!"

Leather is great but like any harness it is as strong as it's weakest link and as heavy now as it might have been then, so choose wisely! And constantly inspect.

Other than that I love where you are going with this and will be excited to see your progress!

[Eledhwen]

Dirhael;

Firstly, anyone living in alpine regions would have requisite skills, Middle Earth or anywhere else.

Gear-wise, pitons are simple metal spikes driven into the rock to secure ropes and links, and simple snap-links aren't all that hard to make even in earlier cultures. My own opinion vis a vis Middle Earth would be that yes, they had such things, probably even leather harnesses for use in climbing. So no, you do not *have* to free climb..and unless you have trained for it, I do not recommend it.

Remember that Boromir had some experience of travel in high places...the implication being mountain travel...and indeed, in some of the histories there are plenty of folk living in the high mountains so rope use, climbing, and related activities should be well within reach.

'Trad' climbing...I do not know what that is. As for precipitous cliffs...without proper gear to challenge them, most cultures simply wouldn't use a route that included things like El Capitan and whatnot. One reason mountains were considered a natural barrier against attack through much of history. That being said, in the Middle Earth, I suspect some mountaineers could manage it..without fancy modern kit...but only a very few. Goblins and Dwarves simply tunnel up from within, so for them less of a problem.

We had rock hammers and ice picks at the Mountain Warfare Center. We carried large amounts of gear; if you are above the treeline you carry things with you that you may not need just now, but probably will before long. The weather up there can change in the blink of an eye. Think of the Fellowship along the pass through the Redhorn Gate; Boromir suggested carrying their firewood since there would be none. Ditto clothing; you can't leave behind things to keep you warm and dry since you are almost certain to need them, but you cannot hike actively in seriously thick gear either; once it gets sweaty it become of little use in the cold and wind and you can overheat badly.

Remember, Otzi, the Iceman, from 5000 + years ago, was found crossing the Italian Alps...and he would have known about glacier travel and whatnot...but again, he wasn't equipped for serious cliff climbing and probably followed the easiest route..which is what I would expect most folk from Middle Earth would do.

Moving a force through the Mountains, whether as part of it, or as a guide, is no small matter.

Have fun, if you try it. I like mountaineering myself...but I am also trained for it..and have taught it now and then. Rope use, rope bridging, free climbing, spliced ropes, etc...just a tiny touch of the tip of the iceberg. And yes, high quality ropes would be a must..modern ones too, please. No sense risking more than you have to. You can find them in suitably earthtone colors and you could simply call them Elvish make to explain the synthetic nature.

Hope that helps. Please be careful. Mountaineering is fun..but it is also dangerous. The Mountains will kill you if you lack the respect they demand.

Eledhwen

[Peter Remling]

By any chance , you're not planning on bringing an army and some oliphants, are you ?

[Eledhwen]

Hannibal for the win, with the help and consent of Celtic and Germanic hillmen.

Eledhwen

[Jon]

Wise words of wisdom from wise rangers. Very insightful of you, Eledwhen, my thanks.

I agree with both of you on the rope front, and such precautions would definitely by necessary in other areas also.
I've no intention of trying anything more serious than perhaps some high-altitude scrambling in period garb and gear. If in the future I was to take it seriously, I would make sure that I have a lot more experience in this area than I do now - but I can see it becoming a rather addictive passtime

For information and just to clarify, 'trad' (short for traditional) climbing - may be called something else in American English - from wikipedia:
''is a style of rock climbing in which a climber or group of climbers places all gear required to protect against falls, and removes it when a passage is complete. Characterising climbing as "traditional" distinguishes it from sport climbing in which all protection and anchor points are permanently installed prior to the climb. [...] Important features of trad climbing are a strong focus on exploration, and a strict dedication to leaving nature unblemished by older means of protection such as damage to the rock caused by use of pitons.''
By free climbing I mean using only muscle power to get to the top, rather than using rope ascenders and things like that.


That's another good point, actually, about the people of the White Mountains knowing their stuff, thanks.
Mountaineering in itself is risking more than you have too, but I shall definitely bear in mind what you have said.

And Eledwhen, 5 stars for that last sentence of yours

The Mountains will kill you if you lack the respect they demand.

I'm also trying to do a bit of research into mountaineering in the Victorian period- as this is when the sport really started to take shape and evolve. It's gonna be really interesting seeing what sort of equipment these guys used.

[Greg]

The closest thing to a "period" climbing harness I can really think of would be a swiss seat or studebaker wrap...one of which is shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssmYruwGTzM

I'll echo Eledhwen's statements...no way in hell should any of you try either of them with non-modern rope or equipment, and absolutely not without training. It's just there as an example so you can see what can be done. Crampons are an older invention, but belay devices are not and should not be attempted in any other way. I spend about 60% of my time at work in a harness, doing rescues and technical work as well as construction in the air...and I'd never use anything but modern ropes. There's just no reasoning for it. I'll risk a night in the cold with period blankets...but hanging in the air? Heck no.

I'd go with what she said about finding the easiest route, too. If you can't hike it with spikes on your shoes, it's too steep to challenge in a period setting.

[Straelbora]

The closest thing to a "period" climbing harness I can really think of would be a swiss seat or studebaker wrap...one of which is shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssmYruwGTzM

I'll echo Eledhwen's statements...no way in hell should any of you try either of them with non-modern rope or equipment, and absolutely not without training. It's just there as an example so you can see what can be done. Crampons are an older invention, but belay devices are not and should not be attempted in any other way. I spend about 60% of my time at work in a harness, doing rescues and technical work as well as construction in the air...and I'd never use anything but modern ropes. There's just no reasoning for it. I'll risk a night in the cold with period blankets...but hanging in the air? Heck no.

I'd go with what she said about finding the easiest route, too. If you can't hike it with spikes on your shoes, it's too steep to challenge in a period setting.

This raises the question- has anyone here made hobnail boots? One problem I've had with smooth soled moccasins is lack of traction and slipping on trails.

[Eledhwen]

Yes, I have, of Late Roman style....4th - 6th Century types, but also the Imperial era Caligae.

They dig in nicely with soil....but on things like marble floors, stone, or modern linoleum one has to be careful not to move wrong, else a sudden conversion to the prone position can and will occur.

You can get good conical hobnails from various Roman reenactment sites.

Eledhwen

[Ringulf]

My Norman Cavelry boots also have a hobnail rimline around the sole but are mostly slick in the middle I used the clear flex seal on the bottoms to help with traction and to keep from raising sparks on cement!