Persona Concept: Cimrandir...Dunedain Archaelogist?

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Eofor
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Re: Persona Concept: Cimrandir...Dunedain Archaelogist?

Post by Eofor »

I don't want to go into a huge wall of text so I'll pick one thing! I think at least in regard to your profession you may be overthinking things. As Gandalf tells Barliman Butterbur in Homeward Bound.
The Rangers have returned. We came back with them. And there is a king again, Barliman. He will soon be turning his mind this way. Then the Greenway will be opened again, and his messengers will come north, and there will be comings and goings, and the evil things will be driven out of the waste-lands.
Now I know this plays in a direction that you have tried to avoid - the assignment from the king - but it does seem to fit and even simplify your ideas. Think also that as a Ranger living (I assume in the Angle) before the events of 3019 then you would have already been under Aragorn's direct command and it is likely that he knows of you and of your unique skills.

Given the timeline you have decided on for Cimrandir then it's entirely plausible that he is one of the kings messengers. Who better to send than a Ranger capable of keeping the road clear who can also use his other skill set and begin the work of investigating the ruins of Arnor for the time when King Elessar casts his gaze northward?
Wandering alone in the wild, during sleepless nights under wet trees Aragorn would have laid plans in his mind for what he would do if ever his throne was claimed. Given how quickly he moves to cleanse the North and rebuild Annúminas (It seems within 50 or so years) he must have acted swiftly in sending people to the site with skill in such areas.
Bear in mind that there is no reason that this duty has to be a one on one special assignment from Elessar himself, he must have sent dozens of Rangers and other specialists back into the North.

As far as income goes it stands to reason that all of these messengers/agents of the king would receive some sort of stipend or later carry a letter of marque from the king (who by this stage has the treasury of Gondor at his disposal). He wouldn't want them having to spend days at the plough or forge when they could be out keeping the peace.
But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest.
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Re: Persona Concept: Cimrandir...Dunedain Archaelogist?

Post by Iodo »

Some thoughts on your thoughts :P and just opinions so don't take it to seriously, I'm no law master LOL
Haradir wrote: I agree that a light, simple touch is the most effective. I fear that I have already passed that point with such a specific backstory and goal. Since this is not "real-world" reenactment I do fear the forcing of a persona in Middle-earth.

Remedy to this? I don't actually know.
to portray a person within middle earth, even if you were just a trader selling fabric on a market, you would still have a reasonable amount of backstory just to say who you are, where your from, who your family are and how you ended up doing the job your doing, that is, unless you follow pure historical reenactment where you only have the kit/knowledge. I've always taken the approach that "keeping it simple" doesn't necessarily mean less/small backstory, just not a noble man/royalty etc... for example to portray a man of Gondor and "keep it real" you might choose to be a guard, rather than a captain of the guard
(probably a bad example but you know what I mean)
Haradir wrote: So! Furthermore, after the War of the Ring and as a wandering iorengollon, I can't see Cimrandir's financial situation improving. Who pays for him to record and discover the lost culture? Eofor mentioned a commission from the king which makes logical sense and yet, as I've said, tying my persona to one of the main characters smacks far too much of fanfiction to me. A conundrum.
again, only my opinion but I don't personally think so, going back to the Gondor guard analogy, hundreds (if not thousands) of relatively common men would have been employed in this manner, and they all take payment from the king
Haradir wrote: I confess to no skill in blacksmithery or leatherworking. I'm not much of a carpenter or stonemason or anything else really. If I'm trying to tie this into what I can do in real life (the proper way I believe) vs an ideal fantasy version of me, I'd be up a creek. I'm just starting and don't really have any skills beyond my real life work.
there's always time to learn, that's what I like most about this hobby :P If I decide Iodo Ionite of Erebor would have a skill (the most recent example is net-making) and I were playing DnD I'd write it on my character sheet, where as here, I go and learn it, what better excuse is there to try new things?
Haradir wrote: He didn't get much time as a "regular" Ranger due to his birth in 2994. Assuming training from a young age and starting at 16-17 that's only 6-7 years before things really kicked off. Perhaps he too is insecure in his woodcraft compared to his older and wiser compatriots?
I think it's a good idea to start with a persona of someone who is intended to be young and inexperienced, that's the idea I've started with and it means my impression of Iodo is more accurate right from the start, and can grow with skills I learn very much in the same way Iodo would in-world, so far it seems to have worked even if my persona/kit is not as book- accurate as many others of this forum
Haradir wrote: Where did he learn to read and write? A good point has been made that we take literacy for granted nowadays but it's not likely that many men could read in Middle-earth. He's clearly needs the skill. Did he learn from his parents?
I don't see it as far-fetched for a ranger to be taught to read and write, after all, it's an important skill if only to be able to send and receive messages of the happenings in the rest of the world
Haradir wrote:Family life - how did he meet his wife? Who is she? What's her story? Something tells me I need to consult the real wife for this one. :lol:
that's actually not a bad idea, I've never written it up (because there's no base in Tolkien law at all) but I have a very loose vague family tree for Iodo, what I did was ask members of my family what they would be called, what jobs they would have etc... if they were Dwarves, and they came out with some good ideas to :P
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
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Elleth
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Re: Persona Concept: Cimrandir...Dunedain Archaelogist?

Post by Elleth »

Just a few thoughts:

Regarding literacty - in the early part of Fellowship we have this -
On the flat under-side Frodo saw some scratches: 'There seems to he a stroke, a dot, and three more strokes,' he said.

'The stroke on the left might be a G-rune with thin branches,' said Strider. 'It might be a sign left by Gandalf, though one cannot be sure. The scratches are fine, and they certainly look fresh. But the marks might mean something quite different, and have nothing to do with us. Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes.'
These are the archaic cirth runes Aragorn speaks of, not the tengwar of contemporary usage. While we don't know if these runes are used in full written messages or more as sigils, it's still evidence that the Rangers are familiar with a writing system no longer used in their part of the world. Further, recall that the Hobbits of the Shire have a post and Barliman is holding a letter from Gandalf: so literacy is at least middling-common in the civilized realms the Rangers move through and around.

While I wouldn't take all that as definative proof of common literacy amongst the Dunedain of the Angle, I think absent more definative evidence, it's enough to assume even a middling sort in Eridaor could defensibly be literate.

(more later, after morning chores are done)
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Re: Persona Concept: Cimrandir...Dunedain Archaelogist?

Post by Elleth »

Regarding travel to the libraries of Minas Tirith:
I think for a Dunedain of Eriador, that would be a once in a lifetime journey... until the War of the Ring at least. Except perhaps as a messenger? Or perhaps some other searching mission in the years before the the War of the Ring? I fear I don't remember all the references there, but if I recall correctly there were quite a few errands all over during in that period.

For what it's worth, I've been told my grandfather as an American GI in WWII Europe was constantly getting demoted back down to private because he kept taking off sightseeting. Surely the tempation for any Ranger of the Grey Company would be no less once he arrived in the White City.

Regarding subsistence and time for archeological pursuits -

... I think you've just recapitualted why archeology as we know it didn't arise until the last couple centuries or so, and even then as a plaything for the wealthy leisure class.
Subsistence farming is HARD - even on a hobby farm without winter starvation breathing down your neck, you always feel constantly behind and overworked. Add regular "militia" ranging serviceduty on top of that, and yes... there's not much room left for academic study.

So I think abandoning an "archeologist" as a foundational archetype for the persona is a good decision - BUT I think there's still tons of room for that bent of personality to express in very interesting ways within the setting.

I suppose in a sense I think of us rather like the baby trees I've been planting. Take any of us, drop the seed of our being into another place and time - and while the soil in which we're set will deeply change which parts of us flourish and which parts whither, the rootstock is much the same.

And so "who would this modern archeologist become.... were he born into the tail end of the Third Age of Middle Earth" is a very very interesting question. :mrgreen:

Anyhow - the Dunedain we meet in the text seem to be more generally mindful than the more earthy men of Bree or the Shirefolk - but perhaps Cimrandir was an outlier even for them.

I see a young Cimrandir lingering over a fallen statue deep in the wastes of the wild, looking over each line, marking the flow of some ancient stonewright's chisel. His captain wants to move on - might even get angry with the young man spending too much time looking over ruins instead of watching the dark like he's supposed to.

His captain looks at a wrecked pile of stone and sees a place out of the rain or a nest of dangerous things to be destroyed: Cimrandir sees that same ruin and imagines soaring towers and laughing townsfolk long, long ago. Maybe he finds a old brooch or long-worn coin in the depths of some dark place, and takes it out to look on in idle moments around camp, running his finger over ancient runes and wondering on the people who made it, and what their lives were like.

And perhaps one day on a massed scout up at Dead Man's Dike, a certain chieftan spies young Cimrandir picking through a pile of wrecked tiles, trying to coax some hint of what image had been rendered there long, long ago.

.... and long hard ages later, when Chieftan had become King, and the time of rebuilding had come at last... a long-ago memory comes to him.
And a message is sent.
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Re: Persona Concept: Cimrandir...Dunedain Archaelogist?

Post by Cimrandir »

Y'know, this is why I truly believe this is one of the best forums on the web. Each one of you is awesome! Could not be more appreciative!

Going from bottom to top.
Elleth wrote:I see a young Cimrandir lingering over a fallen statue deep in the wastes of the wild, looking over each line, marking the flow of some ancient stonewright's chisel. His captain wants to move on - might even get angry with the young man spending too much time looking over ruins instead of watching the dark like he's supposed to.

His captain looks at a wrecked pile of stone and sees a place out of the rain or a nest of dangerous things to be destroyed: Cimrandir sees that same ruin and imagines soaring towers and laughing townsfolk long, long ago. Maybe he finds a old brooch or long-worn coin in the depths of some dark place, and takes it out to look on in idle moments around camp, running his finger over ancient runes and wondering on the people who made it, and what their lives were like.

And perhaps one day on a massed scout up at Dead Man's Dike, a certain chieftan spies young Cimrandir picking through a pile of wrecked tiles, trying to coax some hint of what image had been rendered there long, long ago.

.... and long hard ages later, when Chieftan had become King, and the time of rebuilding had come at last... a long-ago memory comes to him.
And a message is sent.
Chills. Honest to God genuine chills. I just may have to borrow that.
Elleth wrote:Regarding travel to the libraries of Minas Tirith:
I think for a Dunedain of Eriador, that would be a once in a lifetime journey... until the War of the Ring at least. Except perhaps as a messenger? Or perhaps some other searching mission in the years before the the War of the Ring? I fear I don't remember all the references there, but if I recall correctly there were quite a few errands all over during in that period.

For what it's worth, I've been told my grandfather as an American GI in WWII Europe was constantly getting demoted back down to private because he kept taking off sightseeting. Surely the tempation for any Ranger of the Grey Company would be no less once he arrived in the White City.

Regarding subsistence and time for archeological pursuits -

... I think you've just recapitualted why archeology as we know it didn't arise until the last couple centuries or so, and even then as a plaything for the wealthy leisure class.
Subsistence farming is HARD - even on a hobby farm without winter starvation breathing down your neck, you always feel constantly behind and overworked. Add regular "militia" ranging serviceduty on top of that, and yes... there's not much room left for academic study.

So I think abandoning an "archeologist" as a foundational archetype for the persona is a good decision - BUT I think there's still tons of room for that bent of personality to express in very interesting ways within the setting.

I suppose in a sense I think of us rather like the baby trees I've been planting. Take any of us, drop the seed of our being into another place and time - and while the soil in which we're set will deeply change which parts of us flourish and which parts whither, the rootstock is much the same.

And so "who would this modern archeologist become.... were he born into the tail end of the Third Age of Middle Earth" is a very very interesting question. :mrgreen:

Anyhow - the Dunedain we meet in the text seem to be more generally mindful than the more earthy men of Bree or the Shirefolk - but perhaps Cimrandir was an outlier even for them.
Oh aye, I'm struggling with the "realism" as you say. I grew up working on my dad's hobby farm and even that took quite a lot of time and effort. I very much like the notion of bent of personality that influences our personas. It makes it much more personal and involving. You are right that if I am to avoid being part of a leisure class that something as established as an pseudo(?)-archaeologist is generally out the window. But people's personalities are much harder to account for.
Elleth wrote:Regarding literacy - in the early part of Fellowship we have this -
On the flat under-side Frodo saw some scratches: 'There seems to he a stroke, a dot, and three more strokes,' he said.

'The stroke on the left might be a G-rune with thin branches,' said Strider. 'It might be a sign left by Gandalf, though one cannot be sure. The scratches are fine, and they certainly look fresh. But the marks might mean something quite different, and have nothing to do with us. Rangers use runes, and they come here sometimes.'
These are the archaic cirth runes Aragorn speaks of, not the tengwar of contemporary usage. While we don't know if these runes are used in full written messages or more as sigils, it's still evidence that the Rangers are familiar with a writing system no longer used in their part of the world. Further, recall that the Hobbits of the Shire have a post and Barliman is holding a letter from Gandalf: so literacy is at least middling-common in the civilized realms the Rangers move through and around.

While I wouldn't take all that as definative proof of common literacy amongst the Dunedain of the Angle, I think absent more definative evidence, it's enough to assume even a middling sort in Eridaor could defensibly be literate.
True enough and a good interpretation. To even begin with this sort of impression, he needs to be literate. I suppose it was more of a general musing on where he learned. I don't imagine a Middle-earth had much in the way of a school system and parents of the time are generally busy trying to provide.
Iodo wrote:
Haradir wrote: I agree that a light, simple touch is the most effective. I fear that I have already passed that point with such a specific backstory and goal. Since this is not "real-world" reenactment I do fear the forcing of a persona in Middle-earth.

Remedy to this? I don't actually know.
to portray a person within middle earth, even if you were just a trader selling fabric on a market, you would still have a reasonable amount of backstory just to say who you are, where your from, who your family are and how you ended up doing the job your doing, that is, unless you follow pure historical reenactment where you only have the kit/knowledge. I've always taken the approach that "keeping it simple" doesn't necessarily mean less/small backstory, just not a noble man/royalty etc... for example to portray a man of Gondor and "keep it real" you might choose to be a guard, rather than a captain of the guard
(probably a bad example but you know what I mean)
Yeah, I suppose I am leaning a little hard on the "real-world" a little too much. Growing up around reenactors will probably do that to you. I just tend to worry and overthink things.
Iodo wrote:
Haradir wrote: I confess to no skill in blacksmithery or leatherworking. I'm not much of a carpenter or stonemason or anything else really. If I'm trying to tie this into what I can do in real life (the proper way I believe) vs an ideal fantasy version of me, I'd be up a creek. I'm just starting and don't really have any skills beyond my real life work.
there's always time to learn, that's what I like most about this hobby :P If I decide Iodo Ionite of Erebor would have a skill (the most recent example is net-making) and I were playing DnD I'd write it on my character sheet, where as here, I go and learn it, what better excuse is there to try new things?
Haradir wrote: He didn't get much time as a "regular" Ranger due to his birth in 2994. Assuming training from a young age and starting at 16-17 that's only 6-7 years before things really kicked off. Perhaps he too is insecure in his woodcraft compared to his older and wiser compatriots?
I think it's a good idea to start with a persona of someone who is intended to be young and inexperienced, that's the idea I've started with and it means my impression of Iodo is more accurate right from the start, and can grow with skills I learn very much in the same way Iodo would in-world, so far it seems to have worked even if my persona/kit is not as book- accurate as many others of this forum
Oh definitely. I deliberately set his birth year as 2994 to mirror my own in 1994. With the mirroring of 3019 (War of the Ring) to 2019, I'm imagining myself now one year post-War. That why things can progress in "real-time" as it were and allow me to develop Cimrandir to match my own development. I have a bit of catching up to do though. :lol:

And absolutely regarding the learning of new skills! That's primarily why I like the hobby so much to begin with! What better way to learn new things, develop survival skills, and go camping and hiking than through the lens of Tolkien?

Iodo wrote:
Haradir wrote:Family life - how did he meet his wife? Who is she? What's her story? Something tells me I need to consult the real wife for this one. :lol:
that's actually not a bad idea, I've never written it up (because there's no base in Tolkien law at all) but I have a very loose vague family tree for Iodo, what I did was ask members of my family what they would be called, what jobs they would have etc... if they were Dwarves, and they came out with some good ideas to :P
I asked her this morning and she said that if anything, she'd want to be an elf. I haven't the heart to break the news to her yet. :lol: :)
Eofor wrote:I don't want to go into a huge wall of text so I'll pick one thing! I think at least in regard to your profession you may be overthinking things. As Gandalf tells Barliman Butterbur in Homeward Bound.
The Rangers have returned. We came back with them. And there is a king again, Barliman. He will soon be turning his mind this way. Then the Greenway will be opened again, and his messengers will come north, and there will be comings and goings, and the evil things will be driven out of the waste-lands.
Now I know this plays in a direction that you have tried to avoid - the assignment from the king - but it does seem to fit and even simplify your ideas. Think also that as a Ranger living (I assume in the Angle) before the events of 3019 then you would have already been under Aragorn's direct command and it is likely that he knows of you and of your unique skills.

Given the timeline you have decided on for Cimrandir then it's entirely plausible that he is one of the kings messengers. Who better to send than a Ranger capable of keeping the road clear who can also use his other skill set and begin the work of investigating the ruins of Arnor for the time when King Elessar casts his gaze northward?
Wandering alone in the wild, during sleepless nights under wet trees Aragorn would have laid plans in his mind for what he would do if ever his throne was claimed. Given how quickly he moves to cleanse the North and rebuild Annúminas (It seems within 50 or so years) he must have acted swiftly in sending people to the site with skill in such areas.
Bear in mind that there is no reason that this duty has to be a one on one special assignment from Elessar himself, he must have sent dozens of Rangers and other specialists back into the North.

As far as income goes it stands to reason that all of these messengers/agents of the king would receive some sort of stipend or later carry a letter of marque from the king (who by this stage has the treasury of Gondor at his disposal). He wouldn't want them having to spend days at the plough or forge when they could be out keeping the peace.
You make a very good point with the degrees of separation between the King and the people. My mind went to something personal but you are right that it would probably come from the "state." That seems a little better to me. Another good point is the pre-planning Aragorn may have done prior to assuming the crown.

My apologies to everyone for the word-vomit last night. It was just some thoughts that had been rolling around in my head at work and you are all gracious enough to take my ramblings and try to sort it all out. Thank you!
Persona : Cimrandir - late 3rd Age Dunedain
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Re: Persona Concept: Cimrandir...Dunedain Archaelogist?

Post by Iodo »

Haradir wrote: I asked her this morning and she said that if anything, she'd want to be an elf. I haven't the heart to break the news to her yet. :lol: :)
Hmmm... tricky one :lol:
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
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