Gimli's Corslet = Dwarven Plate Armour?

[caedmon]

The King of the Golden Hall p526-527

and Gimli needed no coat of rings ... his short corslet forged beneath the Mountain in the North.

Wait... dwarves used plate armour. Great, will have to rethink things.

[deadextra]

I wouldn't say that based on use of the term corslet, it's a rather unspecific word that has lately been defined. I take its use to mean something like a byrnie, maybe haubergeon.

[Eledhwen]

Corselet is usually used in terms of scale, lamellar, or maille armor...if memory serves Gimili is described earlier as wearing a hauberk or similar so corselet could refer to that instead. I do not recall any reference to plate armor for the dwarves..but given their mastery of metalwork, I do not call it out of bounds either; well within the realm of possibility I would say.

Eledhwen

[Ringulf]

Of course we have ever only seen traveling dwarves, not dwarves in full war gear, but I do not doubt that the skill exists to make and use full plate, augmented with maile and leather. I think it was mentioned in the books that the Knights of the Prince of Dol Amroth had it, but that could also have leaked into my head from other source material.

In any case the plate worn by the Numinorians, Elves and even the soldiers of Gondor, seem to have been possible for those races and it is suggested that the Dwarves are a very high skill level as well (trying to be modest here! lol)

Though even at it's highest level I doubt that the full armour of the latter middle ages such as the Millaise or Maxamillian for example was made as a self suporting and conected unit, but more as an augmentation to the chain and leather that was more practically in use in the early period and dark ages.

[Greg]

The King of the Golden Hall p526-527

Now men came bearing raiment of war from the king's hoard, and they arrayed Aragorn and Legolas in shining mail. Helms too they chose, and round shields: their bosses were overlaid with gold and set with gems, green and red and white. Gandalf took no armor; and Gimli needed no coat of rings, even if one had been found to match his stature, for there was no hauberk in the hoards of Edoras of better make than his short corslet forged beneath the Mountain in the North. But he chose a cap of iron and leather that fitted well upon his round head; and also a small shield he took. It bore the running horse, white upon green, that was the emblem of the House of Eorl.

Tolken, JRR. The Two Towers. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company. 2002.

HUZZAH!!!

[Ernildir]

I find it interesting that even Legolas chose a shield.

[Eledhwen]

PJs movies, awesome as they were, did cause a deal of folk to assume a variety of different things...most notably among those who had never read, or had not read in some long span of years, the books themselves...we won't get into all the surrounding tomes. *grins*

The Knights of Dol Amroth were indeed armored in plate of some kind...probably plate & mail of some sort; they were heavy cavalry. Dwarves, even those of Dain going to Erebor upon the summons of Thorin and expecting a fight, wore hauberks of maille. I still maintain they might have heavy infantry that wore some kind of plate...Thorin may have had plate and maille during the Battle of Five Armies but I have to re-read The Hobbit to be certain.

Shields are no surprise for any of them; in The Silmarillion we know that shields were used by the Elves.

I have always felt the swords should have been single hand weapons, indeed, I have always thought the Del Tin Glamdring and Orcrist far more accurate representations than the movie swords...but as I say, to each their own; it bothers me not at all that the knightly hand and a half sword is held in such romantic esteem.

Eledhwen

[deadextra]

Making armor of plate has less to do with the skill of the armorer than to do with the economics of the region where it's produced.

"...Thus Dr. Williams was able to explain why it is not until the 14th century that items like one-piece breastplates began to appear in Italy. The reason is that economic conditions did not support the construction of large bloomery furnaces needed to make blooms large enough for such large plates until that time.

According to Dr. Williams, a one meter high furnace approximates 1kg blooms. Furthermore, it takes a ten kilogram bloom to produce a two kilogram plate of steel. The reason for this is because as the plate is heated and worked much of it is lost as scale. Therefore the furnaces producing such large blooms of steel were likely very large, permanent structures, and in fact there are period illustrations of such furnaces much taller than a man."

Sheldon, Steven E. "Riveted Mail: Theory and Technique". Forth Armory. August 14, 2000 Web. January 23, 2011.
http://www.forth-armoury.com/research/t ... c456772081

It makes sense, it's not hard to roll steel into sheets and bang it into shape.

[Eledhwen]

Indeed. However, this is Middle Earth, with mithril and Ithildin and dwarves of ancient and natural metal working skills.

I suspect plate could have been had, although it would have been fiercely expensive and not common. If anyone could do it though, it would be the dwarves...and probably more like plate & maille.

That's how I see it, at least.

Eledhwen

[Druin]

There are descriptions of dwarves in full war gear in The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, but I don't remember the specifics of what their armor was, except that in The Silmarillion they wore "war masks" (I imagine them being something like the masks samurai wear) that made them look extra ferocious and protected them from dragon fire. In The Hobbit, Dain and his folk arrive at the Battle of Five armies arrayed in full war gear; I remember the specific mention of them wielding mattocks as weapons, and I think wearing long chain mail hauberks and helms. I'll see if I can find the references, unless someone else beats me to it. Oh, and the dwarves were the uncontested masters of metal and stonework, so Ringulf may be modest to the point of inaccuracy

[Ringulf]

There are descriptions of dwarves in full war gear in The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, but I don't remember the specifics of what their armor was, except that in The Silmarillion they wore "war masks" (I imagine them being something like the masks samurai wear) that made them look extra ferocious and protected them from dragon fire.

You mean like this?

In The Hobbit, Dain and his folk arrive at the Battle of Five armies arrayed in full war gear; I remember the specific mention of them wielding mattocks as weapons,

.......Now don't start that again!.....

and I think wearing long chain mail hauberks and helms. I'll see if I can find the references, unless someone else beats me to it. Oh, and the dwarves were the uncontested masters of metal and stonework, so Ringulf may be modest to the point of inaccuracy

Hey sometimes you gotta downplay the obvious in order to let people come to the inevitable conclusion!

[Manveruon]

Uh huh, riiiiiight. I think you're just trying to lull us into a false sense of security for when your Dwarf minions invade!

[Mirimaran]

Just to add to the debate, to what purpose would plate have been to Dwarves, other than as prestige items? I would think that if we look at an evolution of armor, then there would have to be something that precipitates this, such as a change or leap in technology. In other words, what changed? If mail had been used by Dwarves, what turned them into walking tanks?

Ken

[Manveruon]

Just a thought - since this discussion is a really interesting one on its own, and could probably go on for a while, should we maybe start its own thread?

[Eledhwen]

Trolls perhaps, in larger numbers? Really giant Orcs? Plate is also a prestige item to a degree. Maybe they had something like a Hearthguard that used plate. All speculation really. Just remember when reading that the word 'armor' is not usually used to describe maille in a descriptive way, which is more commonly termed chainmaille or maille armor. 'Armor' by itself often refers to plate or something like it. But of course, not always. *grins*

Me, I like the dwarf in maille with helms sporting ocular pieces...that is, the masked helms. Then again, I prefer maille for the rank and file troops of Gondor and the Dunedain too. The Knights of Dol Amroth, on the other hand, I have always seen as being cased in plate or plate & maille.

Just me though. What do I know?

Eledhwen