Speed Shooting, Weapon Drawing, and Transitioning

Post by **Greg** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:12 am

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Quick Reference Video List:

Speed Shooting Style #1a (Arrows in Bow Hand) Reference Footage:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUhHV9jM-Q
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=EiEIHF_yRdQ
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6CNEhEeC2-M

Speed Shooting Style #1b (Arrows in Shooting Hand) Reference Footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNK-6Hn0uiw

Speed Shooting Style #2 Reference Footage:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6CNEhEeC2-M
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pDLHUHxc3-8

Speed Shooting Style #3 Reference Footage:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz71biEvd60 - Greg

Shooting to Melee Transition Footage:
http://www.meranger.com/timed.wmv - Andy M.

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The ranger skill that I'm the most fond of when it comes to practicing and keeping myself in top condition as a ranger, is Archery.

I consider myself a fairly decent shot. I know my range limitations and don't shoot beyond them save in practice.

But my rate of fire is another matter entirely. Andy has mentioned rate of fire a few times on his website (especially when talking about keeping things authentic by remembering that his rate of fire is his actual ROF, not the ROF he would have if he were as old and experienced as Aragorn and the other Dunedain were, etc.) and others have also spoken about it. Being able to fire an arrow accurately is great, but in a battle situation, you have to be able to fire them FAST.

I have researched speed shooting a fair bit, and have studied countless videos on youtube examining different techniques for shooting arrows in rapid succession. ALL require practice, so that the actions between the firing of one arrow and the next become muscle memory, but they are all very different. I'd like to address the three main styles I have found and/or come up with, and open things for discussion.

Style #1: Push-Through Speed Shooting, Arrows in Hand
Pat Stoddard is a master of this technique. I've never seen anyone shoot faster than him. The video that the title #1 above links to isn't the fastest example of Pat's shooting on youtube, but it gives you a better view of what he's doing with his hands.

Essentially, the archer holds all of the arrows in his bow hand on the back of the bow across the handle. The shooting hand grabs an arrow by the nock end, pulls it back, and lets the tip slip onto the other side of the bow, settling on the shelf or hand, as the case may be. The arrow slides forward, is nocked, drawn, and released. Rinse and repeat.

The problem with this technique from a ranger's perspective, is that a ranger will almost ALWAYS have his arrows in a back quiver. A few of you may prefer hip quivers, and I know a few of you prefer quivers that hang the arrows lower down to reduce movement on the draw, but even then, this method just won't work. With a hip quiver, you could generate a similar effect I'm sure, but other than that, it doesn't seem workable.

Style #2: Push-Through Speed Shooting, Arrows in Back Quiver
This technique isn't widespread by any means, but it is a direct variation of the above mentioned style, using a back quiver. The archer in the video (linked above) is the only person I've ever seen doing this, but I'd never heard of it before.

The one difference between it and the previous style is, quite clearly, that the arrows are on the back instead of in the bow hand. The arrow is whipped up over the head, and then threaded through the bow's gap tip-first onto the shelf/hand, nocked, drawn, and released.

I've practiced it for awhile and it works, but I've developed a different style that works better for me, and is faster. The main problem with the motion is that there is one extra step between quiver and release that doesn't need to be there. With the technique I've become accustomed to, it removes that extra step, and speeds me up. I DO NOT claim that it is the best (I'll never be as fast as Pat shooting this way) but I DO believe that it is more efficient for shooting arrows from the back. But again, it works for me...but you may find that a different method works for you.

Style #3: Straight Draw Speed Shooting, Arrows in Back Quiver
The video above is of myself going through my daily before-bed routine, filmed this evening as I wrote this article. If the video isn't processed yet, I apologize. I go through this sequence for about half a dozen quiver's worth right before I go to bed every night because I always have a few spare moments, I can do it inside, and it promotes a routine. Practice makes perfect, but to get better, practicing consistently is key.

What I did to remove a step in the previous technique was to sacrifice the advantage of having my hand already on the correct side of the string for shooting. The two previous methods put the shooter's string fingers in the correct position, so the moment the arrow is nocked, he/she can draw and release. However, threading the arrow tip-first onto the bow is the extra step that takes up the time. Think of the motions as syllables in a word:
Draw arrow, thread, nock, draw string, loose.
The arrow changes direction three times. It comes out of the quiver, changes direction to thread into the bow, changes direction to nock onto the string and be drawn, and then changes direction to be fired.

Now with my version, you hold the bow horizontally and draw the arrow straight down onto the string, on the side it will be fired from. It's the standard way that most people load their bows for traditional archery...just rehearsed and streamlined. With this method, the list of motions is shortened to:
Draw arrow, nock, draw string, loose. Ideally, drawing the arrow and nocking it will eventually blend into one.
When you draw the arrow straight down to the string and the shelf/hand, you eliminate the threading through as well as a need to change the arrow's direction. Slide the outside edge of your hand along the bowstring to help you feel where the string is as the nock comes back to it. By the time the arrow is on the shelf, it's already (or about to be) snapped onto the string. Bringing your hand around the string to draw and release takes no time at all, and you end up with your arrow on its way much faster.

In that video, I'm averaging just a little faster than an arrow every four seconds, which would bring me right around fifteen arrows a minute. Not bad, but not what I want. I want to at LEAST shave another second off, bringing me to an even three seconds per, with an average of 20 per minute. Thankfully, the goal isn't all THAT far off, because letting the arrows off so they don't fly across my room and fall gently on the bed takes a good quarter to half of a second off of my time, so when shooting, I'm a little faster yet.

Helpful tip: When I draw, I rotate my arrow in my hand before I ever see it come into view, feeling for the grooves in the nock so it's already aligned for the string. You won't always end up with your cock feather in the right direction if you're using self-nocked or classic-nocked arrows, but that's a small price to pay. If you use plastic nocks as I currently do for the sake of money saving, use indexed nocks, and you'll have it right every time. You can practice indoors as shown in the video; come to full draw, then let off without releasing and allow the arrow to fall (I let them land on my bed.) Still, it's a good idea to have a solid backstop just in case a finger slips, so I have my layered foam target on a bookshelf a few feet away out of frame that I draw on.

Alright, enough of me ranting. Thoughts? If you were bold/brave/adventurous/crazy enough to read all of that and (dare I say it) understand me, I commend your efforts, my good sirs.
As for discussion, does this make sense? Anyone else have a way they do it to achieve a faster-than-normal ROF? Anyone use one of the above methods or do something differently?

Aaaannnd...GO!

Steven S. · Post by **Steven S.** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:04 pm

Here is another trick that might work well while on horseback or in a planned ambush type situation.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNK-6Hn0uiw

Post by **Peter Remling** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:04 pm

I first started useing the number three style when I was a teenager. My brother Mike and I would set up wood targets representing 8-12 opponents, sometimes painted and some even bearing swords (represented by sticks) and shields ( represented by trash can lids). The object was to clear all opponents in a set time. If we killed all but one or two the odds were in our favor (bettered armor and weapons) any less and we lost. The set time was determined by how far away the targets were and how long it would take for them to close.

I never was as fast as you currently are.

Post by **Greg** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:31 am

Steven, I'll add your link to the first post to start up an ongoing list of youtube videos of Speed Shooting Styles for a quick and easy reference. Thanks for the link!

Peter, that sounds like a lot of fun! I was too busy trying to shoot ropes over tree branches with a Toys 'R Us bow to pull buckets up into my tree house with, so I missed out on that kind of fun, though that was long before my teen years. But I definitely had my fare share of childhood "rangering" if you will. At age nine, I took my friends on a weekend themed camping trip involving costumes, and I was Robin Hood. So hardcore.

Andy M · Post by **Andy M** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:26 pm

Hey Guys,

Like Greg said, consistancy and practise is the key, and, Train as you Fight.

Where the quiver is on your body is a big factor on the sequence. I prefer the back quiver but that's not necessarily the best for everyone.

It's important to not take your eyes off the target when knocking the arrow. the target will most likely be moving. Most traditional bows and arrows I've shot can be fired with cock feather in or out and not have a big impact on combat accuracy.

When working on transitioning, like in this video, keep focused on the target while drawing your secondary weapon. Ideally, I wouldn't want to drop my bow or spear, at least right away. But with the axe in the sheath as it was, I needed both hands. Doing this drill once with someone aggressing, I had my long seax which is an easy one hand draw. As I drew I held my bow straight out in front of me and it actually gave me another second while he went to strike it out of the way.

http://www.meranger.com/timed.wmv

Post by **Greg** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:06 pm

Alright, now we're talking!

Andy, that's great stuff! Let's try to keep this thread going, stressing both Speed Shooting as well as drawing melee combat weapons, and the transitions between each. Video added to the list, list moved to the top of first post for easy reference. A picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is a movingpicture, so feel free to put something together so we can all work on this together, and I'll add it, with reference to whose video it is.

Post by **Peter Remling** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:34 pm

Very nice videos guys!

mcapanelli · Post by **mcapanelli** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:13 am

Nice video. Makes me realize my archery skills are sorely lacking. I do however practice cutting mats from a draw. That's what you get when your WMA instructor is also an Iaido instructor.

mcapanelli · Post by **mcapanelli** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:55 pm

Since we're talking about shooting, check these videos out. Ron LaClair rocks!

http://www.tradgang.com/videos/ronlaclair/ronl-2.wmv

http://www.shrewbows.com/movies/ronl-4.wmv

Hereward the Wake · Post by **Hereward the Wake** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:35 pm

or these of howard hill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDfbHMyo-NA

Hereward the Wake · Post by **Hereward the Wake** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:59 pm

What surprised me with all the clips apart from Andys was the shooter all looked down to nock the arrow. As Andy says keeping the eyes on, is vital and speeds up the process as there is no need to refocus. It doesn't matter whether you knock the arrow cock feather toward or away from the bow really and with practice you can feel the differance as you are feeling the nock on to the string. what also helps is having just one knocking spot and that above the arrow, so you slide the nock on to the string its much easier to find and works better mechanically.

I also prefer shooting from a shoulder quiver for speed as you can grab a shaft just below the fletching and gives good control but also works mechanically well for getting the hand to the nock, nock to nocking point and and to string up to draw.
Best

Post by **Greg** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:41 am

Hereward has some good points. Since a few days after posting this topic, when looking down to nock the arrow was brought up, I've changed my technique to maintain my focus on acquiring and tracking targets, while I let my hand do the rest. I sped up a bit while doing so, and am quite pleased with my results.

The one thing I disagree with which you mentioned, is grabbing the arrow below the fletching. That's how I used to always draw my arrows, but to nock the arrow to the string quickly, it is much faster to have your hand right there at the point of contact between shaft and string. Having to slide your hand back across the fletching after drawing the arrow adds an additional step/motion to the sequence, and slows me down. May work fine for you, but I've found grabbing the shaft AT the nock to be faster.

Since the thread started, I've also finally finished my first set of self-nocked arrows. It has made things interesting because the arrows I had been practicing with all had index nocks, so the protrusion on the cock feather's side made aligning them very easy. They would, of course, sometimes be backward, but it made finding the slot itself and lining it up with the string very easy. Now, with the self-nocked arrows, I find myself having to feel for something different on the arrow as I bring it around so that I can maintain having the groove lined up with the string by the time it gets down there. I'm still faster than I was before, but it's going to take some work.

Later on, I'm going to take another video, either in my room again, or out somewhere where I can actually shoot, to show some progress to see if I can get some additional feedback. I've also been shooting with my cloak on for some time, and in the last week have been able to start practicing with the new one I acquired from mcapanelli. Practicing with the cloak on has helped me get used to a garment that might hinder my movement in a combat shooting situation. Others, such as Andy, don't seem to be very fond of shooting while in cloaks, which is definitely the smarter route to go. However, I wear a cloak as a part of my means for breaking up my silhouette, and I hate changing my outfit. Essentially, I'm stubborn. My kit is geared towards universal utility, so I don't want to have to plan ahead and remove my cloak before an engagement. And you never know when an ambush is coming around anyway, so it's a good thing to be used to.

Soon, my new quiver will be finished, at which point I'll be more able to engage in the discussions regarding transitioning from shooting to weapons for melee combat, etc. I just can't really practice appropriately yet because my new Kukri sheath is being built into the quiver.

Hereward the Wake · Post by **Hereward the Wake** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:40 pm

Yes it also depends on how your back quiver sits, and the ease with whcih you get used to reaching for your arrows, a nock grab striaght away works and i do it especially with a quver where the arrows sit lower in profile to the shoulder.
Re the self nocks and feeling them, it is just getting sued to it and the profile of the knock, which helps and also as you say if you are grabbing the nock as you are drawing from the quiver and you use thumb and curved index finger, you will already be feeling the alignement.

I was fortunate enough to have been shooting since i was 2 and to have lived on a farm til i was 23 with fields and woods to roam at my leasure, so i could shoot whenever i liked and so normally shot at least twice a day walking the dogs. In one area of woods we had a 15 target big game field course, and i would run between targets and speed shoot, varying my route each time, the wood was divided by a small stream in a steep sided gully which had to be crossed and recrossed at various points.

I would also Rove often with my Dad and that got you used to picking out obscure targets and got you good at judging distance. There was also going after rabbits, who near us at least were very aware, sneaking up on them was hard and they would hear the shot and move so you generally woul dhave to lead them to their likely bolt hole allowing that they would be moving by the time the arrow was there. squirrels were good hunting and eating too, the dogs would tree them often, but they would be on the move otherwise and when they did get treed they made good use of cover and concealment. We shot at these with flu flus, to not loose to many arrows but made for intresting shots at small targets.
There were also several fields in excess of 200 meters so had good options for long distance and clout shooting, this was good for long distance estimation and also allowing for varying wind and weather conditions, snow, rain, differnt cloud conditions, position of the sun etc all either affected the flight of the arrow and/or the appearance of distance.
Writing about it make me realsie how much I got to do and how much I miss that place.
Best
JW

Post by **Greg** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:15 am

We've been talking about quivers and such, and how your quiver will dictate how you draw, etc. Well, after months of waiting and nearly a year of concept sketching before the months of waiting even began, my quiver is finally completed and en route to myself. As I've stated before, I designed it, and then the person who made my bracers built it and adorned it in a fashion to match them. These pictures are during the process of it being built, and there are no photos of it with the straps attached, but he has attached them as per my prototyle model, which I made out of duct tape with a little bit of cardboard for structural support as a test model. At 22", the arrows SHOULD sit a little high in it, but since I only draw ~24-26", that won't be a problem. Nice and compact. The opening scoops down extra low so the tips of the arrows in it clear the top earlier so they don't have to be pulled up quite so far to be drawn, making the entire rig geared towards speed. The maker has also made an additional strap that has a dog-leg angle in it which I will be attaching myself, which holds my bow (it'll make more sense when I've assembled it so you all can see what I'm talking about.)

The quiver sports removable straps that run around the body of it to strap additional gear to, such as a bedroll, sword, spear, etc., as well as a sheath built into the backside of it that my kukri fits into. Once it has arrived, I will be lining it with short-haired silver fox fur or something of the like to contrast with the dark browns of the quiver and the greens of the bulk of my garb, as well as help deaden the noise and hide the sueded interior of the quiver.

When it has arrived, I'll finally be putting up a new video logging my improvement since acquiring self-nocked arrows and the like. In the meantime...it's time for some eye candy!

Mirimaran · Post by **Mirimaran** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:26 pm

That is gorgeous! I can't wait to see it fully rigged and full of arrows! Very very nice!