Middle Earth Ranger Forum

If folks are unfamilar there is a debate raging out there in internet land on if the Eagles solve all the walking around in LOTR. Mainly due to the recent video from Brotherhood workshop countering the HISHE video saying the Eagles solve the quest in no time. Both videos posted bellow.



VS



You should discount the argument that is out there that Gandalf said "fly you fools" before falling in Moria meaning fly on the Eagles. This should be discounted as this is only dialog from the movie and not in the books. (discount this as I have been corrected that it is included)

Also note I have allowed you to change your vote, so if you are swayed by an argument to change your mind then you can alter your vote in the pole.

Finally, please don't get personal or get offended at eachother. Remember this is all just fun and about fiction. Different people might have different opinions and that is fine (as long as you agree with my opinion ). In the end this is all just 2nd guessing a wonderful piece of fiction so lets not take it too serious.

ineffableone wrote:
You should discount the argument that is out there that Gandalf said "fly you fools" before falling in Moria meaning fly on the Eagles. This should be discounted as this is only dialog from the movie and not in the books.

Ummm.. That is from the Histories, "The Bridge of Khhazad-dum" FOTR, page 345 of the leather bound edition

Gondian wrote:

ineffableone wrote:
You should discount the argument that is out there that Gandalf said "fly you fools" before falling in Moria meaning fly on the Eagles. This should be discounted as this is only dialog from the movie and not in the books.

Ummm.. That is from the Histories, "The Bridge of Khhazad-dum" FOTR, page 345 of the leather bound edition

I stand corrected.

FWIW, "Fly" in this context is synonymous with "flee" - it was a little archaic even in JRR's time, but his contemporary readers would have gotten it.

Giant Eye in the sky !

There is absolutely no way the Eagles would have gotten close
enough without a good diversion. If only one Eagle was sent
it would have been easily overpowered. If more than one Eagle
was sent it would have announced where the Ring was and all
the Nazguls would have ridden out to intercept it.

If the Eagles went by themselves, the Nazgul would have sniffed
out the Ring. If the Hobbits went mounted, all the Nazgul
would have to do was knock the Hobbits off.

Mushed Hobbit and ring recovery

Case closed !

Peter Remling wrote:Giant Eye in the sky !

There is absolutely no way the Eagles would have gotten close
enough without a good diversion. If only one Eagle was sent
it would have been easily overpowered. If more than one Eagle
was sent it would have announced where the Ring was and all
the Nazguls would have ridden out to intercept it.

If the Eagles went by themselves, the Nazgul would have sniffed
out the Ring. If the Hobbits went mounted, all the Nazgul
would have to do was knock the Hobbits off.

Mushed Hobbit and ring recovery

Case closed !

Just a few counters to yours.

What is stopping them from coming close, nothing we have seen shows the Eye actually having any direct power other than seeing things and influencing the ring.

At the time of the council, the Nazgul were unhorsed, they had not yet gotten wings. They would have had to travel back to Mordor to get wings. The Eagles would have been able to make it to the council and take the hobbits and maybe a bunch of elf archers they weigh little they walk on top of snow they are so light. Plus one powerful wizard. Quite a contingent to repeal any Nazgul if they actually could get to air in time. So what if the Nazguls fly out to intercept, the Eagles fought them at the Battle of the Black Gate. 100's of Eagles vs 9 Nazgul. Not much of a contest.

Couple of things; First who says that the essence of Sauron
couldn't send the flying mounts out without Nazguls mounted.
Whose to say Sauron didn't understand the potential of an aerial
assault and didn't keep the flying serpents just for that reason
otherwise the Nazgul would be mounted on them from the get go.

I have to take issue with "100s" of Eagles, the amount of food
needed to feed "100s" of Eagles would be prohibitive.

Even if they could feed them, that many giant birds would freak
out all the horses, not to mention a good few humans, unless
they were to feed on bodies of the dead orcs and that would
definetely add to the Freak Out Factor.

Peter Remling wrote:Couple of things; First who says that the essence of Sauron
couldn't send the flying mounts out without Nazguls mounted.
Whose to say Sauron didn't understand the potential of an aerial
assault and didn't keep the flying serpents just for that reason
otherwise the Nazgul would be mounted on them from the get go.

I have to take issue with "100s" of Eagles, the amount of food
needed to feed "100s" of Eagles would be prohibitive.

Even if they could feed them, that many giant birds would freak
out all the horses, not to mention a good few humans, unless
they were to feed on bodies of the dead orcs and that would
definetely add to the Freak Out Factor.

Nothing except there is no mention of Sauron being able to do that. But even if he could, without the wraiths the Eagles would have even easier time defeating them.

What horses, there is not any need for horses so the worry of freaking horses out is just a distraction.

There are deer, orcs, wargs, sheep, olyphants, and more for the Eagles to feed on. What might the Eagles have feed on when they came to the Battle of the Black Gate? Or the Battle of the 5 Armies? If they can come out of the Misty Mountians both of those times and find food, I think they can find food for an important mission like destroying the ring.

Remember Eagles can fly a lot faster and in relatively straight lines. So the 11 or so months it took the fellowship to travel on ground could have been accomplished in a fraction of the time.

Okay, if the 9 being unhorsed was a deciding factor in the
timetable, what about Saruman ? He was still n the picture
at the time of the Council.

He could summon a storm, knock the Eagles out of the sky and
simply send out parties to search the debris for the ring.

Though this is a fun little excersize that we are all indulging in, I think it really smacks of missing the point entirely.
Though in our modern times we are very in to game bashing, ends justifying means, instant gratification, one shot kills...The story is really never about the end it is always about the journey, the process, the hope. Just as Pilgrims progress or Dante's Inferno, it is designed to enlighten us about the "human" condition, life's struggle, and that perserverance and cooperation for the love of good and peace is a worthy endeavor no matter it's outcome.
Sure you could send the most powerful guy on the fastest eagle and game over, but what was learned what was sacrificed? It is the Journey friends not the destination that Professor Tolkien wrote about.

Ringulf wrote:Though this is a fun little excersize that we are all indulging in, I think it really smacks of missing the point entirely.
Though in our modern times we are very in to game bashing, ends justifying means, instant gratification, one shot kills...The story is really never about the end it is always about the journey, the process, the hope. Just as Pilgrims progress or Dante's Inferno, it is designed to enlighten us about the "human" condition, life's struggle, and that perserverance and cooperation for the love of good and peace is a worthy endeavor no matter it's outcome.
Sure you could send the most powerful guy on the fastest eagle and game over, but what was learned what was sacrificed? It is the Journey friends not the destination that Professor Tolkien wrote about.

WHY DOESNT MERF HAVE A LIKE BUTTON?

Ringulf wrote:Though this is a fun little excersize that we are all indulging in, I think it really smacks of missing the point entirely.
Though in our modern times we are very in to game bashing, ends justifying means, instant gratification, one shot kills...The story is really never about the end it is always about the journey, the process, the hope. Just as Pilgrims progress or Dante's Inferno, it is designed to enlighten us about the "human" condition, life's struggle, and that perserverance and cooperation for the love of good and peace is a worthy endeavor no matter it's outcome.
Sure you could send the most powerful guy on the fastest eagle and game over, but what was learned what was sacrificed? It is the Journey friends not the destination that Professor Tolkien wrote about.

Actually one of the big reasons I was not happy with PJ cutting the books version Hobbits return home. The whole them ending up in the tavern laughing and the Shire Hobbits not knowing they just saved they entire world was a bit of a let down. The entire point of the books ending having the Shire dug up and under "new management" was to give the Hobbits the chance to be the heroes without others helping. To be the heroes at home not just out in the big world outside the Shire. It was time for the changes they went through during the fellowship to be used to save their home directly. I have said since seeing the end of the movie, while I understand why he cut it, I would have preferred he cut the leaving of ME and kept the fight for the Shire. They had filmed at least some of it, as it was in Sam's vision. Personally I think it was much more important than Bilbo leaving ME with the Elves.

Peter Remling wrote:Okay, if the 9 being unhorsed was a deciding factor in the
timetable, what about Saruman ? He was still n the picture
at the time of the Council.

He could summon a storm, knock the Eagles out of the sky and
simply send out parties to search the debris for the ring.

Now the White Wizard is a very good point and one I had not put much thought into. Though how powerful and able to knock the eagles out of the sky is a big question. And would he possible switch back onto the good side if he knew that the eagles could bypass the risk of walking the ring to Mordor?

ineffableone wrote:

Peter Remling wrote:Okay, if the 9 being unhorsed was a deciding factor in the
timetable, what about Saruman ? He was still n the picture
at the time of the Council.

He could summon a storm, knock the Eagles out of the sky and
simply send out parties to search the debris for the ring.

Now the White Wizard is a very good point and one I had not put much thought into. Though how powerful and able to knock the eagles out of the sky is a big question. And would he possible switch back onto the good side if he knew that the eagles could bypass the risk of walking the ring to Mordor?

Saruman completely missed an Eagle nearly landing on his roof.

ineffableone wrote:

Ringulf wrote:Though this is a fun little excersize that we are all indulging in, I think it really smacks of missing the point entirely.
Though in our modern times we are very in to game bashing, ends justifying means, instant gratification, one shot kills...The story is really never about the end it is always about the journey, the process, the hope. Just as Pilgrims progress or Dante's Inferno, it is designed to enlighten us about the "human" condition, life's struggle, and that perserverance and cooperation for the love of good and peace is a worthy endeavor no matter it's outcome.
Sure you could send the most powerful guy on the fastest eagle and game over, but what was learned what was sacrificed? It is the Journey friends not the destination that Professor Tolkien wrote about.

Actually one of the big reasons I was not happy with PJ cutting the books version Hobbits return home. The whole them ending up in the tavern laughing and the Shire Hobbits not knowing they just saved they entire world was a bit of a let down. The entire point of the books ending having the Shire dug up and under "new management" was to give the Hobbits the chance to be the heroes without others helping. To be the heroes at home not just out in the big world outside the Shire. It was time for the changes they went through during the fellowship to be used to save their home directly. I have said since seeing the end of the movie, while I understand why he cut it, I would have preferred he cut the leaving of ME and kept the fight for the Shire. They had filmed at least some of it, as it was in Sam's vision. Personally I think it was much more important than Bilbo leaving ME with the Elves.

Just to throw in my two cents about the Scouring of the Shire not being in the movies. I personally think that would have made the movie lack in effect. Imagine watching the Battle for Pelennor Fields, Then the Black Gate. Frodo Destroys the ring, all is fine and dandy people are happy the bad guys are defeated, and then Samwise returns to the Shire razed to the ground. It would feel as though the movie already ended and as Michael Corleone said, "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in." Yes they did add a sort of easter egg in the vision of what could be and in the extended edition of Two Towers, Sam has a little chest that fell out of his pocket when he and Frodo were coming down a small cliff with Sams elven rope. Although he tells Frodo its seasoning just incase they have roast chicken