Archery Instructor-Master Fletcher-Boyer-Ask Me Anything

[Rhonin]

Hello All,

I was browsing the "interwebs" looking for some information and stumbled across this wonderful forum. Taking some time to read through some of the information I was looking for, I saw a lot of excellent information about Rangers and everyone's gear (by the way, you guys know your stuff about rangers, excellent work!)

The one thing that kinda stuck out though was the fact that I saw a very large amount of Rangers owning a bow, but not really knowing how to shoot it. On top of that, I saw a great deal of misinformation about archery and some basic procedures pertaining to strings, cleaning, arrows, arrow flight, etc.

While I'm all for encouraging everyone's opinion, there should be only one opinion when it comes to safety (for example, did you know that putting any type of oil such as lemon oil on a wood core bow can actually soften the wood and increase the risk of the bow snapping at full draw!?).

So I thought I may be able to help my fellow rangers out. I have 20+ years of archery experience, I'm a Class 1 archery instructor (working on my Class 2), I have 12+ years of arrow making experience, both with dozens of types of woods and carbon/aluminum/fiberglass. I've also instructed countless boy scouts and girl scouts in basic safety. I've read just about every archery book you can imagine (and my lovely wife bought me a 1st edition robin hood book), and have tried just about every technique for aiming, hunting, and target shooting. I've shot just about every bow you can imagine at one point or another and am currently shooting a 30th Anniversary Tomahawk SS Diamond Series 1 piece longbow (although recurve was my choice bow for years, if anyone is curious why I switched, I'd love to have a conversation about it).

I love discussing the practicalities of fletching design, nocking style, split finger vs 3 under, troubleshooting wobbly arrow flights, troubleshooting target panic, troubleshooting the archer him/herself, and pretty much anything related to archery.

So I'd like to keep this an open forum post and have everyone consider it as an "open door" to ask me any archery questions that they want. And while I have no problem with other rangers opinions, I will say that for every ounce of knowledge I've managed to get out of this lovely sport, I have 10 ounces of mistakes that tell me why things are a bad idea. My goal is to help out, particularly when it comes to safety, not step on others toes and shoot down their opinions.

After all, archery ultimately is what works for each individual and any experienced archer will tell you that. What works best for me, may not work best for someone else. Personally I combine some great techniques from Howard Hill, G. Fred Asbell, and Fred Bear all to make up my style. Their individual styles just didn't work for me. But, the more I read and the more I practiced, the better I got and I eventually found my own style which is a combination of hunting practicality and steady long distant shooting (60+ yards) with a stick and a string.

I hope that even a little of what I know will find its way to inspire others to take up and really practice this wonderful sport. It has the ability to connect us to 10,000+ years of human history and struggle. And as the great Maurice Thompson wrote "So long as the new moon returns in heaven, a bent, beautiful bow so long with the fascination of archery keep hold in the hearts of men."

I'll do my best to keep up!

[Manveruon]

Well met, Rhonin! Thank you for popping in! We are always happy to see new members contributing to the overall knowledge of the forum.

I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say about making and fletching arrows, as this has become something of a casual hobby of mine, and I'm curious to know what info you've gleaned on the subject over the years - especially if you're familiar with using ash shafts, or other hardwoods, because I haven't tried my hand at that.

One thing though, with regard to the oiling of bows, I have to admit that idea goes against nearly everything I've heard or read about it in the past, when it comes to maintaining non-sealed wooden bows. Even the experienced bowyer who made my current hickory-backed-ipe longbow recommended rubbing it down with a light layer of tung oil every six months or so, just to keep the bow sealed and hydrated - and I can attest to the fact that woods which are not oiled here in the extremely dry Colorado air can quickly dry out and crack.

Anyway, once again, welcome, and we hope you will enjoy your stay! I daresay the collected Tolkien/history/bushcraft/trekking experience here make this one of the greatest places on the web to really sink one's teeth into one of the most unique hobbies ever!

[Peter Remling]

Welcome Rhonin ! I too was curious about the non-oiling of the wood. The only thing I could think of was it might leave the outer wood too flexible over the harder core which would reduce poundage and could cause the bow to snap. Could you please elaborate ?

[Greg]

Curious about the oiling comment as well...how would you relate that to the typical care of, say, a yew selfbow?

Glad to have you pop in! I've shot a few Tomahawks...Dale Karch knew what he was doing when he started that line. What a bow.

You obviously have experience in the Archery world, but I'm curious...how does someone like you find yourself on a forum like this? Do you have ties to reenactment, Tolkien/Fantasy literature, and/or bushcraft?

[Rhonin]

Hey All!

Thanks very much for the warm welcome!

As I mentioned before, I'm all for other opinions and am certainly up for a great discussion on the subject!

For "Modern Traditional" bows (wood bows with a composite material or foam/glass core):
Generally for any modern bow, you do not want to use oils as it can loosen the glues and adhesives that bind the layers together. I unfortunately had a bow fall apart on me because I didn't know better. Instead, I use a small amount of Paste Wax at the turn of Fall and Spring (one coat for the spring and summer to keep rain at bay and two for winter to keep the bow protected from branches that may scratch the clear coat).

For Self Bows:
Linseed oil is perfectly acceptable when making and setting (finishing) the bow. With self bows, this rule is a bit more flexible. The very nature of wood makes it very absorbent and in cold, dry weather, your bow may shoot a bit "stiffer" than it normally wood due to the fibers being stiff. In the hot, humid summers, I tend to shoot low as the bow looses a bit of power in the summer time due to the fibers being more relaxed.

Ideally, you want to keep the moisture in the wood at the ideal level (which will depend on the type of wood and environment that you're in). Once the bow has been sealed and finished, I always recommend using a wax. Paste or Bees wax to help keep that oil from drying out.

Unfortunately any bow that was not sealed properly (or even if it was but is under tough environmental circumstances), will eventually loose moisture. A light coating of linseed oil, in those cases, do some good.

I personally try to stay away from lemon oil, I've had some bad results oiling self bows and having the wood become "slick", again, this was before I knew any better.

A good resource for understanding how oils react vs waxes is the "Traditional Bowyers Bible" collection. You can find it on 3 rivers or amazon, for a pretty good price. The 4 books go over a lot of information about wood and why bows actually work the way that they work. Very, very good resource for any archer, even if you're not a bowyer.

I personally have heard horror stories of snapped works of art for using too much oil. I guess a better way to say what I said in my original post would be to "use caution" when using oils.

As a side note, I'd actually really like to post some archery pics of what I'm caring and get some suggestions about how to be a better ranger. As an outdoor fellow, I love to hunt (ground stalking only, be fair to the animals!), track game, fly fish with some self tied flies, etc and just roam the mountains of VA. But, I know very little about being a ranger and i'm trying to get more into it. So any help from you all would be greatly appreciated.

I hope that clears up some of the confusion! I'll try and post what I have when I get in.

[Rhonin]

Sorry Greg, I didn't read your post all the way through =P

Great questions.

I've been a fan of the LoTR universe for some time. I've always loved the idea of a completely self sufficient lifestyle (although I live far from that life style in my current job as an engineer). Talking the talk has never been enough for me though, I've always wanted to learn the skills that I need to meet my needs and then move on to a new skill. The problem for me has always been keeping those skills sharp.

Archery is my first love and will always be. I'm a hopeless romantic and love the old Robin Hood rhymes and the association of the longbow with such an amazing archer. Back here in the real world, my archery hero was Howard Hill, quite an amazing hunter/archery.

My next passion after archery is Fly Fishing. I got into it recently after moving to the mountains from the beach (where I surf fished for my dinner regularly). More to my taste of being self reliant, I love fly tying. There is nothing more satisfying than catching a 5 lb Rainbow on a self tied fly that you made from some feathers you found around the stream that morning.

After that, Brewing (every good ranger needs to relax, right?). I recently got into brewing my own Honey Meads and have come up with some great recipes that I'll be more than happy to share once I'm done waiting on them to finish their fermentation.

While I'm not a "prep-er" per say, I do find a lot of comfort in the old ways of doing things and rediscovering knowledge that has been lost for years, sometimes ages, and re learning those techniques. The image of a ranger was burned into my mind as a child and I very much want to hold on to that image.

I do frequent the maryland ren fair, so if anyone sees a fellow in a green tunic with gold trim and a black cloak, its usually me trying to stalk the beef jerky vendor =P

Thanks again all for the warm welcome. I hope I can answer any questions you all have and share the love of this fantastic sport!

[Greg]

Well, then,welcome! Too bad I just moved back to CA from the Midwest...I'm sure we would get along famously. Life long fly-fisherman here, too. Welcome aboard!

[Strongbow]

Hello Rhonin I would just like to say how glad I am to have seen your post as I had sort of given up coming here because I am an archer and although I have been a Tolkien fan and member of the TS for almost 40 years and love textual discussion and the wealth of information available here about Middle Earth, I came here hoping to meet up with other 'Archers of Middle Earth' . I do not criticise merely observe, but as you say, many here own bows but don't seem to know much about them or about archery. The oil thing is an example - nothing but beeswax and carnuba on a longbow unless you want to strip it for re-varnishing. I am really glad to meet another archer and fellow Level One coach and hope to learn a bit from you. I shoot Old English/Welsh Longbow in target and field and Traditional in field. Let's shoot some arrows

[Greg]

I'm glad some like-minded folks are having a chance to connect through the forum here, but I have to admit...I'm a little surprised that we now have multiple users saying they believe that knowledge in Archery skills and information is lacking on this forum, and I certainly am surprised that it would make you feel like the forum wasn't worth your time, Strongbow. To the contrary, many of us have a wealth of experience in Archery, notably Ursus, whose father is a lifelong bowyer, Eledhwen, who is a phenomenal fletcher, and more. Honestly...I think the 'lack' of knowledge you're seeing might well be because we simply don't regularly discuss archery in detail very frequently, and when it is brought up, it is typically done so by those who are less experienced, since they're more likely to have questions anyway. I won't tell you where to spend your time, of course, and the discussions here may simply not be Archery-focused enough for your liking.

I'm not here to poo-poo your experience or anything, of course, either; you both are clearly knowledgeable and experienced...just don't sell your fellow forumites short!

[Strongbow]

Thank you for your reply Greg and I assure you I am not trying to sell anyone short, but like Rhonin I thought the discussions on archery here lacked accuracy. Not from everyone and you are quite right Eledwhen contributed very informative and interesting points but from others I took the same impression that Rhonin did; ''I saw a very large amount of Rangers owning a bow, but not really knowing how to shoot it. On top of that, I saw a great deal of misinformation about archery and some basic procedures pertaining to strings, cleaning, arrows, arrow flight, etc. '' I made a point about bow poundage and was somewhat astonished to see weights of 50, 60 and even 100 lbs mentioned in connection with a longbow. Shooting years with the British Longbow Society In Ireland, I have only met one longbowman who shot a 60 lb longbow. It is true that archers in competitions shoot all day, 144 arrows in the old Imperial outdoor Grand National rounds, but even if you are shooting fewer arrows those are unrealistically high poundages and could do serious injury. In fact a longbow is not a toy but a very dangerous weapon, even to the archer and has to be used correctly which is why Rhonin's offer of expert advice is something I was very glad to see.

[Greg]

For those who are bowhunters first and became reenactors later, such as myself, 50-60 poundages aren't all that out-of-place. A very wise man once said that a bowhunter could take any game in north america with a 55# bow, and he was very right. Now, if you're referring to those being high poundages for beginning archers, I can completely relate and agree!

[Rhonin]

Strongbow - A pleasure to meet you! I'm always happy to have a contextual conversation about Archery. Reading through both Greg's and yours responses I wanted to weigh in.

It is important to note that I have by no means looked through all the archery posts here and above all things I do not want to knock other peoples knowledge. After all, a lifetime of archery will simply make you a more experienced beginner.

I guess what I saw when I "passed by" the forum was a lack of distinction between fiction and non-fiction when it came to the discussions about archery. I have heard the same thing that Greg heard about 55# being able to hunt and take down any animal in North America, carrying a 100lb bow isn't very practical to me for a hunting situation.

On the other hand, if you say you carry a 100# bow because that's what the Elves carried and you're able to shoot it without struggling, more power to you! I certainly don't want to get in the way of someone enjoying the sport, whether that is based on a love of fiction or non-fiction.

And perhaps Greg is right, perhaps I took discussions out of context and should have paid more attention to the overall discussion. But going back to something I said in my first post, safety is key for me and archery. Over bowing yourself (drawing a bow that is too difficult to pull back consistently) is the number one mistake I see new archers make. This is a safety concern to me simply because of the injuries that occur from long time shooters: Tendinitis, rotater cuff injuries, tennis elbow... the list goes on.

[Odigan]

I made a point about bow poundage and was somewhat astonished to see weights of 50, 60 and even 100 lbs mentioned in connection with a longbow. ...but even if you are shooting fewer arrows those are unrealistically high poundages and could do serious injury.

I am more astonished that anyone would be shooting a longbow which drew less than fifty pounds. I am certainly not surprised at poundages in the 50-75 range, which amongst my associates is quite common, nor at mention of 100 lbs, for despite its impracticality I personally know more than one individual who draws in excess of 100 lbs. for purposes of experimental archaeology and museum demonstrations. They are certainly not "unrealistically high poundages" any more than physical exertion of any other type is - they require training and proper technique, but to be quite honest I find weights ~50 lbs. quite average even for leisurely target shooting.

And as a note to the OP, while your passion for archery is evident and I support the dissemination of factual information, I would offer the kind suggestion that few are those who respond well to persons proferring advice with a lead in of "You're doing it wrong and I know so much more than you." Even if true, few social circles will be so gracious in their reply as you have seen here.

[Rhonin]

Haha! Well Met, and well said Odigan!

I'm sorry that you took my passion, love and most of all, concern for other peoples safety for this great human past time as arrogance. But everyone is entitled to their opinion, after all, it is the Internet! =D.

As to the point about bow poundage, as an instructor it would be irresponsible of me to hand a new student a bow that they could not handle. I'm totally fine with someone shooting a 120# bow, as long as they can comfortably handle it. Personally, with all the rotator cuff and elbow injuries i've seen, I'm of the mindset that a 55# bow will kill a deer as dead as a 100# bow. On the other hand, if medieval reinactment, or flight (distance) shooting is what you're all about, I can totally understand the heavier weight. As I mentioned before, I can only handle 55# - 60# comfortably, and I would NEVER suggest that a student "over bow" themselves.

No hard feelings Odigan!

[Odigan]

I'm sorry that you took my passion, love and most of all, concern for other peoples safety for this great human past time as arrogance.

Oh, I meant neither to state or imply arrogance on your part, merely to indicate that your manner of introduction was not in keeping with generally accepted social discourse. In your first post you paint a broad stroke in decrying the skills of those whom you know nothing of while expecting to be taken as skilled yourself without those among us knowing anything of you aside from your introduction. You - and those you wish to assist - may have both been better served had you addressed the particulars you found improper individually and without accusation in their respective threads.

The issue of oils, for example, could well have been an informative thread in its own right, for as you see there is reasonable and dissenting opinion on that subject. Not surprisingly, given that you state "that putting any type of oil" (as in any oil at all) "such as lemon oil" (a specific type of oil) on a "wood core" bow to be detrimental. I've never heard of anyone suggesting that one should, nor have witnessed anyone oiling a laminate bow, so found it strikingly out of place here, as I'm sure others did.

I agree that overbowing is detrimental to both safety and enjoyment (the two also being interconnected) but the issue also serves to reinforce my point that such things should be taken on an individual basis, as the measure of both is subjective. Yes, despite your own feelings, acceptable levels of personal risk/harm and potential for injury are very much subjective matters.