Middle Earth Ranger Forum

This probably isn't very helpful but with no known Third Age Dunedain cultural motifs I feel that ultimately, the choice will be yours. I'm not sure how it would work in the MERS with everybody on the same theoretical level but I'm reminded of caedmon's quote earlier in the thread.

Trying to piece them together to get third age Dunedain design is like trying to reconstruct 17th century German Jewish motifs from a Sumerian bas-relief, a couple clay tablets, and some 12th century Sufi calligraphy.

I agree that the Anglo-Saxon animal interlace is far too evocative of Rohan, the Celtic swirls and knotwork aren't right for the Dunedain, and frankly, I think the Art Nouveau seems just a little out of place in Middle-earth, elves aside. Where that leaves the Dunedain, I'm not sure. Like I said, I'm generally not very helpful.

My basic "feel" on the Dunedain is one of a "hopeful sorrow" if that make sense. They are the remnants of a broken society and yet they are holding out for Arnor to be reclaimed. Determination, solitude and sorrow seem to be the main traits - to me at least. Especially with the Rangers being the self-imposed outcasts tasked with protecting a society that fears and doesn't understand them. How one would express that through art is beyond my knowledge and I'm not even sure that it would be expressed in their art. I know the Professor seems to prefer a sort of static society but I find it somewhat of a stretch that the Dunedain would retain Númenórean motifs throughout the millennia and all the fire and change that brings. It's a puzzle that I'm not qualified to solve honestly, ramblings aside.

I also agree that "no other fair thing" doesn't mean plain and I definitely think there should be some sort of cultural decoration, whatever it may be.

Yeah, I agree that we may not be able to really find any definitive answers for all the reasons you mention - but I do very much enjoy the speculation! I have found this thread quite engrossing for that reason, and I’m excited to see what we can continue to come up with.

Oh, no doubt. I am finding this thread to be very interesting and I am also excited to see what our more creative artists here will design!

Forgive me if I have the wrong idea after quickly reading this discussion, is the idea here to create an archive of usable Dunedain cultural motifs as digital files, maybe on the wiki?

if so, could we include different category's of stuff from other cultures/places etc and set it up as a library that members can add files to (with appropriate guidelines on resolution, file format etc..) and download files from? because I think that we could make this into an amazing resource for people

Iodo wrote:Forgive me if I have the wrong idea after quickly reading this discussion, is the idea here to create an archive of usable Dunedain cultural motifs as digital files, maybe on the wiki?

if so, could we include different category's of stuff from other cultures/places etc and set it up as a library that members can add files to (with appropriate guidelines on resolution, file format etc..) and download files from? because I think that we could make this into an amazing resource for people

Yup, that's exactly it. Do you have any thoughts?

Ok, there were:



a: 3 votes
b: 5 votes
c: 2 votes


So I'm going to do B. Any thoughts on formats & metadata? By meta-data I mean the cultural and temporal stuff. What culture is it from, what time period, most like uses, etc.

caedmon wrote: Yup, that's exactly it. Do you have any thoughts?

I'd be happy to contribute digital files of dwarven designs I have used in my kit, and any other things from other ME cultures that I've used in gifts for people etc...

although I admit I'm not sure why we are voting on designs? I probably missed something but I would have thought if we were making an archive we would include all designs we think are good enough, and say in accompanying documentation what culture/time it best fits, also the way I see it, a lot of this is personal to the person who's using the design an what best fits with the overall style of the rest of they're kit and persona

Iodo wrote:

caedmon wrote: Yup, that's exactly it. Do you have any thoughts?

I'd be happy to contribute digital files of dwarven designs I have used in my kit, and any other things from other ME cultures that I've used in gifts for people etc...

although I admit I'm not sure why we are voting on designs? I probably missed something but I would have thought if we were making an archive we would include all designs we think are good enough, and say in accompanying documentation what culture/time it best fits, also the way I see it, a lot of this is personal to the person who's using the design an what best fits with the overall style of the rest of they're kit and persona

You don't have to make people vote. I just have a big backlog and didn't know where to start, and thought it would be fun.

I guess that the only other suggestion is that we should presume that any design we share in this way is expected to be freely used. Maybe we should look at a Creative Commons/Attribution license? So don't post other people work (without permission... which I may have done with B. Ellleth, are you ok with me riffing off your style?)

I get it now, fair enough

caedmon wrote:I guess that the only other suggestion is that we should presume that any design we share in this way is expected to be freely used. Maybe we should look at a Creative Commons/Attribution license? So don't post other people work (without permission... which I may have done with B. Ellleth, are you ok with me riffing off your style?)

Good point! I’m totally fine with anyone here borrowing my designs if and when I share any (meaning those created specifically for this forum and project), even without any sort of attribution or credit (although I do love seeing what people may do with my ideas), but I think making something semi-formal might not be a bad plan.

Absolutely! If I post something here, it's with the active *desire* to provide fodder for other people's work. Knock yourself out!
I sent EPS files for what I have to Manv, and I'm happy to send you a copy to if it helps.

More practically, I think we have two considerations:
1. We don't want some bottom-feeder snagging your work and putting it on Amazon or something to try and charge people for what you/we are giving to the community.
2. Since a lot of our work is based on Professor Tolkien's own sketches, I don't know as we'd *have* the ability to enforce any kind of license.

... but it sounds like Creative Commons is exactly the kind of thing we'd want to do.

Yikes, please be very careful here people, I've been caught out with licensing before, I narrowly avoided being fined, it was all over something I'd put up on the internet and I wasn't even making money from it

Elleth wrote: 2. Since a lot of our work is based on Professor Tolkien's own sketches, I don't know as we'd *have* the ability to enforce any kind of license.


... but it sounds like Creative Commons is exactly the kind of thing we'd want to do.

Elleth is on the right lines with the statement I highlighted in bold, however CC covers a range of different licences (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/) and they all have one thing in common, the artist is defining how others should use there work. As a fan-art/fiction creator you're not the owner of the intellectual property and therefore don't have the legal right to do that. It's at this point that you infringe copyright by using a CC license, because by doing so you're claiming ownership of the intellectual property that was used to create it

Although because of the “fair use” agreement clause, where if the work is inspired by but not identical to anything in the original work, the creator can call it there own and licence it however they want, so in this case a CC license would be fine, caution is needed as the line between the two can get very hazy

As far as my (extensive) research leads me to believe, the best way to avoid accidentally falling into any nasty legal traps is to not licence the work at all, make sure there is no financial gain from it, and state this (along with the rightful owner of) the intellectual property in a disclaimer


And providing you follow the above, If this happens:

Elleth wrote:1. We don't want some bottom-feeder snagging your work and putting it on Amazon or something to try and charge people for what you/we are giving to the community

it shouldn't be a worry because whoever's behind it, it's the Tolkien estates lawyers they'll have to contend with


[EDIT] That was long and boring, sorry guys : (
and just a thought: To avoid all this problem, the archive could be members only?

Makes sense. I would also probably say we should clearly differentiate between anything we create ourselves that’s BASED on motifs the Professor originally drew, and anything that is in fact one of his personal sketches or illustrations (which is probably an obvious statement, but still).

Manveruon wrote: I would also probably say we should clearly differentiate between anything we create ourselves that’s BASED on motifs the Professor originally drew, and anything that is in fact one of his personal sketches or illustrations

Agreed, good idea maybe if it's directly from something Tolkien's artwork we should include a reference? this would probably help people who want to use it know where it's from etc... as well as with copyright

caedmon wrote: Any thoughts on formats?

What would be most useful for people? are we looking at just a visual reference (jpg) or something that can be printed onto stuff, vinyl or laser cut etc... so vector image or png, if so, what kind of image sizes?

just throwing it out there