new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

From Numenor to Far Harad...

Moderators: caedmon, Greg

Post Reply
User avatar
Udwin
Vendor
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:00 pm
Location: central Kain-tuc-kee
Contact:

new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Udwin »

Now that the latest newletter is out and about—inspiring other folks to consider Second Age kits!—I figure I can finally start laying out what I’ve been thinking about since last January!

Looking back on the last 8-9 years I’ve been at this hobby, I realized that all of my impressions were pointed in a definite direction…with varying degrees of success.
As I’ve breadcrumbed here & there, the main impetus behind my personal vision of ‘Middle-earth reenactment/reconstruction’ is as an outlet for more sustainable, ‘primitive’/‘wild’, and/or animist attitudes....without having to portray a Native Amerindian or perhaps a pre-Roman Gaul or Germanic. Especially in today's political climate, as a Caucasian individual of the USA, I hesitate when it comes to Native living history, 'redface', and potential for accusations of cultural appropriation, and what little early ‘Nordic’ and ‘Germanic’ history survived the Romans has too often unfortunately been watered down or usurped by various flavors of Fash (yes, we reenactors should try to ‘take it back’, but honestly…I usually don’t have the mental energy). On the other hand, playing in the technically-fictional, mythic-but-grounded setting of Middle-earth allows opportunities for experimentation, exploration, and education through applicability while being less beholden to the imposed limits of real-world history and modern political correctness.

So. Way back in 2014, my first attempt to channel my worldview through a Middle-earth lens emerged as my what-would-eventually-become-a-Beorning persona, Aistan. Unfortunately, over the intervening years, further research has given me a better grasp on the history of Men and the culture of Wilderland, and has led me to believe that as a people, the Beornings are in fact fairly ‘civilized’ – Beorn’s unique animal-partnership lifestyle notwithstanding!
The next year, I developed a Stoorish Hobbit persona, as a way to play with ideas of egalitarian anarchy in a Shire context, while getting double-duty out of some existing 18th century reenacting kit. Again, further research into both dress and the cultural institutions of Tolkien’s times suggested by his texts have forced me to conclude that the Shire, while having many positive aspects, not only didn’t resemble the 18th century but was far from a utopian classless society.
However, my original desire still existed. Was there anywhere in Middle-earth where I might find a culture of ‘primitive’, stubbornly resistant Men through whom I might channel my wild 'Earth first' views? The answer, it turns out, is yes – but largely not in the Third Age! Funnily enough, my third proposed impression also briefly considered something along these lines back in 2014.

The seed of this impression was planted at the Yule exchange of two years ago when I was gifted a beautiful bronze axehead by Elleth (that’s right – this is all your fault! ;)
I’d been fascinated with bronzeware for a while, but it didn’t feel right for either of the late Third Age personas which I had already developed. I know it’s not ‘Best Practices In Reenacting’ to build an impression around a specific piece of Hard Kit….but, I wondered, “Might such a tool might be appropriate for a Man of an earlier Age?” I had already been attracted to the rarely-explored pre-Númenórean perspective after reading the incomplete Tal-Elmar in The Peoples of Middle-earth years ago, and became more invested after reading Andreas Möhn’s Middle-earth Seen By the Barbarians during the lockdowns of early 2020.
I remembered Tal-Elmar containing several references to lithic industries, but I wasn’t sure how representative of the larger pre-Númenórean culture that story was, or if a bronze axe would be appropriate for any other groups. As it turned out, that question was just the tip of the iceberg.

TL;DR:
-Wanted to portray a wild, animist, ancient European Man --> Aístan… but turns out Beornings are probably fairly civilized.
-Wanted to portray a horticultural hobbit anarchist using 18th century clothes --> Tungo… but turns out the Shire is more late 19th century and isn’t really that classless and anarchist.
-Wanted to portray a wild, animist, ancient European Copper/Bronze Age forager who shies away from outsiders and shoots seven-foot-tall exploitative colonizers from behind trees --> Gwathuirim, BINGO!

(I hesitate to use the Gwathuirim (S. ‘Shadowy Men’) label for this impression too much, as this is a misnomer placed on them by the Dúnedain and they definitely wouldn’t have been speaking Sindarin; since we have no idea what they would’ve called themselves ‘Early Second Age Man of the Greyflood’ will have to do. In reality this is just a proto-Dunlending forager-herdsman-skirmisher.

In another post, I will lay out the relevant information I have managed to winnow in my research from the various primary sources, although I must share two important caveats at the outset:
1) While we have some information on several pre-Númenórean and/or related or descended groups, we do not have a compete view of any one of these cultures.
2) Our datapoints are extremely distant (chronologically) from each other, spread across more than 7,000 years of the First, Second, and Third Ages.
Despite this limitation, with a fair amount of reading between the lines (and a liberal application of ‘frog DNA’) I think I can extrapolate and create a kit with a decently text-accurate foundation. However, it must technically be limited (at present) to a mere Impression as opposed to a properly fleshed-out First-Person Persona, which would include authentic naming, dates, place-names, and such details… however, I think a Second- or Third-Person POV is possible.
Last edited by Udwin on Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Personae: Aistan son of Ansteig, common Beorning of Wilderland; Tungo Brandybuck, Eastfarthing Bounder, 3018 TA; a native Man of the Greyflood, c.850 SA
User avatar
Greg
Urush bithî 'nKi ya-nam bawâb
Posts: 4496
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Eriador; Central Indiana

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Greg »

SO looking forward to this.
Now the sword shall come from under the cloak.
User avatar
Manveruon
Thangailhir
Posts: 2582
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:11 am
Location: Littleton, CO
Contact:

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Manveruon »

Sweet Manwë, dude, this is some seriously next level stuff here.
I appreciate how willing you’ve always been to dig WAY WAY DEEPER than just about anyone else I know into all of the nitty-gritty cultural nuances and forgotten corners of lore in pursuit of the oft-overlooked portions of Arda that Tolkien himself seemed largely to dismiss in favor of his precious Elves. It’s certainly WAY WAY further in-depth than anything I’d want to jump into personally, but nonetheless I will be watching with a keen interest as it develops!
Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
User avatar
Manveruon
Thangailhir
Posts: 2582
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:11 am
Location: Littleton, CO
Contact:

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Manveruon »

…That being said, this does bring up some stuff I’ve been chewing HARD on as I’ve finally worked my way through the Silmarillion - particularly the fact that one cannot in good conscience ignore the fact that most/all of the texts we have from Tolkien about the history of his world (and how it, therefore, relates to our own as a mythical history) are written from an EXTREMELY BIASED perspective. I’ve frequently found myself wondering lately about these cultures that oft get painted with a broad (and generally pretty disdainful) brush - the “Haradrim” and “Easterlings” and so forth. It’s such a two-dimensional way to look at cultures that, realistically, would make up the population of the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD outside the little corner of Middle-earth that we usually focus on. Such an English imperialistic perspective, TBH (which I suppose is only to be expected from someone like Prof. Tolkien, who was, of course, a middle/upper-class English academic, born in the late 19th century, after all).
But the more time goes on, the more I become curious about how certain groups of, say, Easterlings, would view the events of the First Age and the conflict with Morgoth, viewed largely from afar and likely rather unaffected by the outcome, at least on the surface. Tolkien himself even does mention (albeit in passing) that there were many people to the East and South who chose to ally themselves neither with the Elves/Valar nor with Morgoth, and who later came under the rule of those aligned with the latter, after they were driven out of the West - and truth be told I think that is just BEGGING for adaptation/interpretation by some savvy fan-fictionist.
But anyway, I digress. :lol:
Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
User avatar
Cimrandir
Haeropada
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:44 am

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Cimrandir »

Holy moley, this is the stuff I love from this hobby. What a deep dive into some overlooked Tolkien lore! Echoing the others here by saying I can't wait to see where this goes!
Manveruon wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:02 pm …That being said, this does bring up some stuff I’ve been chewing HARD on as I’ve finally worked my way through the Silmarillion - particularly the fact that one cannot in good conscience ignore the fact that most/all of the texts we have from Tolkien about the history of his world (and how it, therefore, relates to our own as a mythical history) are written from an EXTREMELY BIASED perspective. I’ve frequently found myself wondering lately about these cultures that oft get painted with a broad (and generally pretty disdainful) brush - the “Haradrim” and “Easterlings” and so forth. It’s such a two-dimensional way to look at cultures that, realistically, would make up the population of the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD outside the little corner of Middle-earth that we usually focus on. Such an English imperialistic perspective, TBH (which I suppose is only to be expected from someone like Prof. Tolkien, who was, of course, a middle/upper-class English academic, born in the late 19th century, after all).
But the more time goes on, the more I become curious about how certain groups of, say, Easterlings, would view the events of the First Age and the conflict with Morgoth, viewed largely from afar and likely rather unaffected by the outcome, at least on the surface. Tolkien himself even does mention (albeit in passing) that there were many people to the East and South who chose to ally themselves neither with the Elves/Valar nor with Morgoth, and who later came under the rule of those aligned with the latter, after they were driven out of the West - and truth be told I think that is just BEGGING for adaptation/interpretation by some savvy fan-fictionist.
But anyway, I digress. :lol:
Semi-unrelated but I've been kicking around an idea along those lines in an TTRPG setting. You play as a heroic band battling evil forces and about halfway through the twist is revealed that you're the quote-unquote "bad guys" of traditional fantasy milieus. It would be hard to pull off but I think it's a great idea to do a little examination of fantasy good/evil perspectives.
Persona : Cimrandir - late 3rd Age Dunedain
User avatar
Iodo
Thangailhir
Posts: 2112
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: North west england UK
Contact:

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Iodo »

I've just read through all of this and am seriously impressed by your research, it has changed my mental picture of 2nd age ME significantly and I can't wait to see more of this, nicely done :P
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
User avatar
Iodo
Thangailhir
Posts: 2112
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: North west england UK
Contact:

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Iodo »

Cimrandir wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:20 am Semi-unrelated but I've been kicking around an idea along those lines in an TTRPG setting. You play as a heroic band battling evil forces and about halfway through the twist is revealed that you're the quote-unquote "bad guys" of traditional fantasy milieus. It would be hard to pull off but I think it's a great idea to do a little examination of fantasy good/evil perspectives.
This is a cool concept
Gimli: It's true you don't see many Dwarf-women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for Dwarf-men.
Aragorn: It's the beards.
User avatar
Jack
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:29 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Jack »

That would definitely be an interesting persona to see fleshed out Udwin. Looking forward to that.
Cimrandir wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:20 am Semi-unrelated but I've been kicking around an idea along those lines in an TTRPG setting. You play as a heroic band battling evil forces and about halfway through the twist is revealed that you're the quote-unquote "bad guys" of traditional fantasy milieus. It would be hard to pull off but I think it's a great idea to do a little examination of fantasy good/evil perspectives.
That should be fun. I'm currently writing a short campaign for my friends pretty similar to that concept where it culminates with the party finding out they are bad guys that just assumed goblins orcs etc were evil and have spent the last 2-3 sessions commiting war crimes lol
Then the "next" campaign i'll have every one choose new characters from the archetypicall "villain" races (goblins, minotaurs, ogres, orcs, lycanthropes etc) and task them with bringing their previous characters (now enemy NPCs bolstered by whatever boons they acquired in the prev campaign) to justice.
Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
User avatar
Darnokthemage
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:02 pm

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Darnokthemage »

Exciting!

My personal guess would be that Bronze was something that existed in the region, rare and prized, but probably pre-numenorean contact. Is it not mentioned somewhere that the Numenoreans teached these people to work iron? Or am i misremembering, And that just like in Real life, Stone tools and weapons would have been used long after the adoption of bronze, where it was not available.

The Swords of Westernesse are quite likely bronze, they are mentioned as such in one of fellowship drafts of HoME.
My Second "note" is that you can probably draw some conclusions from Tal Elmar, it was originally set around the area of the Isen, So material culture is probable to match both areas.
Artist, larper and history lover.
User avatar
Elleth
êphal ki-*raznahê
Posts: 2932
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:26 am
Location: in the Angle; New England

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Elleth »

Oh very fun!

What an interesting subject.... and I should have known "... seen by the barbarians" would be up your alley. :mrgreen:
Persona: Aerlinneth, Dúnedain of Amon Lendel c. TA 3010.
User avatar
jbook
Silent Watcher over the Peaceful Lands
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:58 pm
Location: The Shire/Rohan
Contact:

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by jbook »

It’s such a two-dimensional way to look at cultures that, realistically, would make up the population of the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD outside the little corner of Middle-earth that we usually focus on. Such an English imperialistic perspective, TBH (which I suppose is only to be expected from someone like Prof. Tolkien, who was, of course, a middle/upper-class English academic, born in the late 19th century, after all).
Tolkien was far from an Imperialist.

“I love England (not Great Britain and certainly not the British Commonwealth (grr!))” (Letter 53 – December 1943). “I know nothing about British or American imperialism in the Far East that does not fill me with regret and disgust.” (Letter 100 – May 1945)

And even if he was, to nitpick about cultures that didn't even exist to begin with that he made up and accuse him of not giving them their due because of some underlying colonialist disposition is to completely miss the greatness and depth of his work and why he wrote it. I don't say any of this to upset, I can just be a grouch sometimes. Love the discussions as always.
User avatar
Manveruon
Thangailhir
Posts: 2582
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:11 am
Location: Littleton, CO
Contact:

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Manveruon »

Oh, I’m not necessarily trying to argue that Tolkien *himself* was an imperialist (as you point out here he seemed strongly opposed to the idea in general, and I think there are a number of themes in his written works that support this) - but only that his worldview was likely shaped somewhat by the time and place he lived, and that the fictitious peoples he wrote about likely had their OWN biased perspective as well.
But those are fascinating quotes! I’m no Tolkien scholar, so I admit I’d never seen them before. One of my favorite parts, aside from the actual subject-matter itself, is the little “grr” at the end, which seems almost too modern/casual for the Professor’s usually somewhat formal, early-20th Century tone! I absolutely love that Tolkien himself threw in a little written-out growl! Goes to show just how strongly he felt about the subject at hand, I suppose! :lol:
Maerondir Perianseron, also called “Mickel,” Halfling Friend - Ranger of the Misty Mountains
User avatar
Cimrandir
Haeropada
Posts: 938
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:44 am

Re: new Impression: Man of the Greyflood, c. SA 850

Post by Cimrandir »

jbook wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:37 am
It’s such a two-dimensional way to look at cultures that, realistically, would make up the population of the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD outside the little corner of Middle-earth that we usually focus on. Such an English imperialistic perspective, TBH (which I suppose is only to be expected from someone like Prof. Tolkien, who was, of course, a middle/upper-class English academic, born in the late 19th century, after all).
Tolkien was far from an Imperialist.

“I love England (not Great Britain and certainly not the British Commonwealth (grr!))” (Letter 53 – December 1943). “I know nothing about British or American imperialism in the Far East that does not fill me with regret and disgust.” (Letter 100 – May 1945)

And even if he was, to nitpick about cultures that didn't even exist to begin with that he made up and accuse him of not giving them their due because of some underlying colonialist disposition is to completely miss the greatness and depth of his work and why he wrote it. I don't say any of this to upset, I can just be a grouch sometimes. Love the discussions as always.
Fascinating. I had never read those particular letters before. Letter 53 goes even further I'd say -
Humph, well! I wonder (if we survive this war) if there will be any niche, even of sufferance, left for reactionary back numbers like me (and you). The bigger things get the smaller and duller or flatter the globe gets. It is getting to be all one blasted little provincial suburb. When they have introduced American sanitation, morale-pep, feminism, and mass production throughout the Near East, Middle East, Far East, U.S.S.R., the Pampas, el Gran Chaco, the Danubian Basin, Equatorial Africa, Hither Further and Inner Mumbo-land, Gondhwanaland, Lhasa, and the villages of darkest Berkshire, how happy we shall be. At any rate it ought to cut down travel. There will be nowhere to go. So people will (I opine) go all the faster. Col. Knox 4 says ⅛ of the world's population speaks 'English', and that is the biggest language group. If true, damn shame – say I. May the curse of Babel strike all their tongues till they can only say 'baa baa'. It would mean much the same. I think I shall have to refuse to speak anything but Old Mercian.

But seriously: I do find this Americo-cosmopolitanism very terrifying. Quâ mind and spirit, and neglecting the piddling fears of timid flesh which does not want to be shot or chopped by brutal and
licentious soldiery (German or other), I am not really sure that its victory is going to be so much the better for the world as a whole and in the long run than the victory of ——.5 I don't suppose letters
in are censored. But if they are, or not, I need to you hardly add that them's the sentiments of a good many folk — and no indication of lack of patriotism.
A particularly prescient thought as American neo-colonialism further spreads around the world. How absolutely fascinating. Tolkien continues to be one of the most interesting historical figures I know. Thank you for sharing those quotes jbook.
Persona : Cimrandir - late 3rd Age Dunedain
Post Reply